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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:06 pm 
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it's not that he doped & profitted. Like the cases of Madoff, Nixon, Clinton & others, it's the cover-up that's the only bad thing in our society. Cheat & win - You're in! Cover it up when they call you out on it AND can prove it? You lose, big time.


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Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:06 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:35 pm 
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there's more than a little truth to what btompkins says. after all, we (that is, the general public) put him on the pedestal in the first place.

the basic dynamic of celebrity culture, as Roger Caillios wrote in 1961, is to elevate people -- especially people from humble beginnings with whom we can better identify -- and then tear them down when some fatal flaw is revealed. both the rise and fall make us feel better about ourselves. (it's a sick dynamic, which is why I try not to participate in celebrity culture by staying as ignorant of it as possible.)

still, people make choices. not everyone succumbs to temptation.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:29 am 
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swinter - I get the point, and agree there is some truth in it.

The LA case is interesting because it really was a perfect alignment of factors that created an environment he was able to exploit, in particular:

> The extreme unwillingness in western society generally to question charitable activity, particularly when associated with a subject as sensitive as cancer (we saw this manifest itself on this forum when I was the first person to post that Lance had lied to cancer sufferers ... yet those are exactly the people he is now most apologetic to).

> America post 9/11 wanting all-conquering heroes. France wasn't a great ally post-9/11 so all the better he dominated their main sporting event.

> An unfit for purpose testing regime and incompetent governing body.

> An ignorance in the US public about bike racing generally, though of course they knew of the TdF, and knew it was insanely hard.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:01 pm 
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I don't think you should throw the testing regime and the governing body in the same boat. Drugs testing is simply very, very hard to do, and I'm sure the labs themselves were using the best methods they had at their disposal, even if (if) the governing body was trying to hamstring them.

Of course in retrospect they would have done much better just searching for what was in the riders' hotel rooms instead of what was in their bodies :roll:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:22 pm 
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sawyer wrote:
swinter - I get the point, and agree there is some truth in it.

The LA case is interesting because it really was a perfect alignment of factors that created an environment he was able to exploit, in particular:

> The extreme unwillingness in western society generally to question charitable activity, particularly when associated with a subject as sensitive as cancer (we saw this manifest itself on this forum when I was the first person to post that Lance had lied to cancer sufferers ... yet those are exactly the people he is now most apologetic to).

> America post 9/11 wanting all-conquering heroes. France wasn't a great ally post-9/11 so all the better he dominated their main sporting event.

> An unfit for purpose testing regime and incompetent governing body.

> An ignorance in the US public about bike racing generally, though of course they knew of the TdF, and knew it was insanely hard.


that, or maybe it's just the fact that professional sport is flooded with doping. why complicate the obvious - whenever the glory, fame and money are at stake, there's a bunch of people willing to achieve their goals by any means possible. sport, businness, politics, they are more or less the same in this regard. the biggest issue is how the society deals with it. i'd say we don't

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:17 pm 
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Lot's of over analyzing going on here.

By 9/11/2001 Lance had already come back from cancer and won 3 Tours. The environment for him to do as he pleased was already well established.

America didn't need Lance to make us feel better after 9/11. We had a different Texan for that :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:27 pm 
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swinter wrote:
edesigner wrote:
Boy Joerg really nailed it at 9:40 http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/fourco ... g_288p.mp4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thanks for that link.

the best line was his take on the omerta in cycling: "No, it's not like the Mafia. The Mafia is a lot better."


He has some great lines on the full 45 minute segment as well. The guy is full of fantastic sound bites :)

Another good interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBYrawY__N0

I would love to see him get a job in the UCI after they "clean house"


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:28 pm 
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bricky21 wrote:
Lot's of over analyzing going on here.

By 9/11/2001 Lance had already come back from cancer and won 3 Tours. The environment for him to do as he pleased was already well established.

America didn't need Lance to make us feel better after 9/11. We had a different Texan for that :wink:
Yeah, and look what a flaming mess he left behind too!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:21 pm 
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we don't disagree, sawyer.

LA had plenty of enablers both inside his entourage and in cycling as a whole. I was just saying that "we" are among them.

I don't let him off the hook for a second, though. He lied; he lied through his teeth; and he betrayed, especially, those cancer victims who were inspired by him. (my wife is one; she watched the interview with me and you should hear her.) He cynically exploited people's need and desire for heros, and he cynically exploited his charity work. He did so for personal gain. (Read the NY Times piece on how he benefitted financially and politically from Livestrong. I posted the link earlier.)

And he lied again during his "rehabilitation tour" on Oprah. (I thought it was hysterical that, on Twitter, it was #Doprah.) Worse he's still covering for the UCI and the cycling establishment with his "it's all fixed now, I couldn't pull it off today." Kimmage was right about him.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:35 pm 
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bricky21 wrote:
Lot's of over analyzing going on here.

By 9/11/2001 Lance had already come back from cancer and won 3 Tours. The environment for him to do as he pleased was already well established.

America didn't need Lance to make us feel better after 9/11. We had a different Texan for that :wink:
Yeah, and look what a flaming mess he left behind too!


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 Post subject: Will the UCI confess?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:43 pm 
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Perhaps on Oprah?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:42 pm 
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This is the key question: Lance doping hasn't been news for years. There's too many unanswered questions about UCI.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:45 pm 
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They are low on funds at the moment. Unless someone donates a few 100k, they are not sure the efficacy of their truthfulness program can be upheld. Send cheques to Verbruggen if you can.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:21 pm 
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http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2013/01/21/l-uci-a-couvert-lance-armstrong-des-le-tour-1999_1820072_3242.html

Google translate:
The UCI covered Lance Armstrong at the Tour 1999

"Lance Armstrong has confirmed that there was no collusion or conspiracy with the UCI. There has been no positive tests covered," said Pat McQuaid, president of the International Cycling Union (UCI) in a statement. "Never was nothing hidden," insists, terse and peremptory, Hein Verbruggen, chairman of the international from 1991 to 2005. Confessions Lance Armstrong of doping, television in the United States Thursday 17 and Friday 18 January, have not refreshed the memory of the UCI, which forgets the 1999 Tour de France, the first of seven won by the American .

The UCI had then accepted a medical certificate rider, who had undergone testing positive for steroids. Lance Armstrong has admitted to Oprah Winfrey that he was backdated. The UCI could then ignore this obvious cheating.

On July 4, at the end of the first stage between Montagues and Challans, Lance Armstrong, bib 181 is controlled. The report written at the time (read below) indicates the rider's name and number of the collection associated with it (157,372) and will be analyzed anonymously. Under the heading "remarks the Athlete controlled" and "medications", it says "none". It is on this line that the rider must imperatively according to UCI rules, whether it had a prescription authorizing the use of a drug. By "None", he admitted not having. Control is especially commissioned by the UCI, including a representative of the Medical Board signed the PV, along with the rider and his team manager, Johan Bruyneel.

On several occasions thereafter, the one who wears the yellow jersey insist do not follow treatment. In an interview with L'Equipe, it ensures, among other things, not to take steroids and possess no prescription may justify therapeutic use. July 20, Le Monde reported that Lance Armstrong is positive for steroids, triamcinolone acetonide. As shown in the results of the National Laboratory for Doping Detection, sampling 157 372 (see document below) has "traces" of the banned substance. Lance Armstrong is positive, as it is written out and a cross on the report. When contacted by the newspaper, Hein Verbruggen, then president of the UCI, is moved not positive but this revelation "confidential information" in the press.

"THE LIE OF ARMSTRONG COULD NEVER EXIST"

July 21, against the attack is organized. The UCI issued a press release in support of the American. It breaks the confidentiality and states that "a medical prescription was submitted to the UCI," without specifying the date. No matter that this requirement does not appear in the minutes of July 4. Lance Armstrong has confirmed last week that it was backdated to cover the positive control.

The UCI has protected the rider accepting this document forgery. She went further. In her statement, she defended the innocence of the rider and was attacking violently World, accusing him of publishing information "unfounded". In a well-tuned ballet, Lance Armstrong, silent for twenty-four hours, went out to turn the silence. Cleared by the UCI, he attacked in turn "vulture journalism", denounced the "gossip". He announced his intention to file a complaint against Le Monde, it is obviously to keep.

Contacted by Le Monde Sunday, January 20 to comment on this episode, Pat McQuaid and Hein Verbruggen, IOC influential member today, did not respond to interview requests. In 1999, the UCI has not merely to intimidate newspapers "irresponsible." Hein Verbruggen also called for the Tour de France, the French minister of sports, Marie-George Buffet. "It was an extreme virulence with respect to the policy we put in place against doping. He said that we wanted the death of cycling and the Tour de France," recalls Gilles Smadja, Chief of Staff the Minister and, incidentally, the Grande Boucle fan since childhood.

"We provided proof lies Armstrong, says the caller. Instead of putting pressure on him and his entourage, the UCI has decided to spend all his energy to show the innocence of the rider Based on an order which we are told today that it was backdated. What is now called the big lie of Armstrong, with its pathos and its share of cynicism, could never exist if international bodies of cycling had a modicum of clarity and firmness during the 1999 Tour de France. " This was the first missed opportunity and the beginning of dangerous liaisons between the American and the UCI, about which Lance Armstrong was not poured upon his half-confession.

Copy of the minutes of the check on Lance Armstrong during the Tour 1999. | The World
Image

Copy of the analysis report indicating the positive control of Lance Armstrong in the Tour 1999. | The World
Image

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:36 pm 
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So many people question the credibility of professional cycling because of the doping. I question the credibility of professional cycling because of the UCI.

What will it take for some one to come forward and blow the whistle on this thing. I had hoped maybe 'the bully' would. He had little to loose at this stage. $1 000 000 donation. Sure Lance. You can fool the guys in Colorado ridin' yellow Treks with yellow Oakleys but don't think your foolin' anyone else.

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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:36 pm 


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