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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:20 am 
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Posts: 380
Mackers wrote:
KLabs wrote:
Hub: Novatec F482SB, with ABG freehub, 32H 4xDS 2xNDS ... this lacing should give almost equal DS/NDS spoke tension

I've seen this mentioned in this thread before, and it is absolutely not true.
Even if you could lace a 32h hub 4x, the nds tension would still be only 50%.

Hi Mackers, I checked a wheel that's laced 32H 4xDS 2xNDS, and the DS deflection tension was 62 and NDS was 57. DS was very tight. Not sure what hub was used but it was nothing special, and the rim was an eyeleted 20-22mm deep Alex rim (shallow rim). 14g SS spokes were used. I believe it was a 9 or 10 spd hub :-)

I am not sure what 62 equates to in kgf but it would be well over 100, probably more like 120 to 130 or higher.
Lets say DS spokes were 120kgf then the NDS spokes would be approx 110kgf ... that is quite even/close, about 90% DS :-)

Looking at the 4x lacing, the spokes pass initially over the spoke heads ( first cross), so I agree 4x on a 28H would depend on the flange dia and probably not a good idea, but possible. It would appear that a 4x lacing would be better done on a 36H hub, but can easily be done on a 32H hub and even a 28H hub (depending on hub and rim).

Comments welcome :-)


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Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:20 am 


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:48 am 
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Posts: 468
Then I suggest you use that hub to build your wheel, the Novatec's still not going to give you much better than 50% nds tension (Spocalc says 52%)

I always thought lacing a spoke over a spoke head was a pretty dumb idea, but yes, it can be done.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:24 am 
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Posts: 380
Hi Mackers, perhaps so or something similar ... it appears that rear wheel building is not straight forward.
I am only a beginner, but it would appear that flange offset, flange spacing, flange dia, spoke lacing, spoke type, spoke length, rim depth, and rim strength
I guess that is why I am asking questions. I could experiment myself but I do not have the money to do so, so I am asking lots of questions ... thank you for all the replies :-)

Do you have a link to Spocalc. There appears to be a few of them ...

PS: It would appear the the person I occasionally talk to has done a 4xDS 2xNDS lacing once or twice. He usually does as 2xDS 3xNDS, 2x 2x, or a 3x 2x, or less lacing depending on the hub, rim, and person weight.
For reasons of longevity, and repairableness after an incident, he does not like the 2:1 triplet or 16:8 lacings, as much :-)


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:34 pm 
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CX ray vs....

http://kavitec.blogspot.com/

Image

Image

some macro photo with 70$ Canon :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:51 am 
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Great post kavitator. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:14 am 
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Location: Slovenia---that forest land
Thx
We just need one real test to get real data what is difference between shapes - i think 1,5mm round spoke is more aero than flat 1x3mm - specialy in airflow from side

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:42 pm 
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kavitator wrote:
Thx
We just need one real test to get real data what is difference between shapes - i think 1,5mm round spoke is more aero than flat 1x3mm - specialy in airflow from side


i was thinking the same thing, it could be interesting to see real test

Nice job for the picture

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:59 pm 
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Thats why the Laser is my favourite spoke. I like the CX-ray except for the cost. The laser does the job (almost) as well as other manufacturers bladed spokes.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Location: Estonia
Those U-shape chinese rims are very attractive, so I decided to build myself a pair of training wheels.
I´m 67kg (147lbs) and I live in very flat country.
Here´s my plan:
Front hub: Circus Monkey HRW, FTF 69mm
Spokes: 20 Sapim Laser, radial

Rear hub: Circus Monkey HRW, NDS 40mm; DS 19mm
Spokes: 28 Sapim Race, 2x both sides.

Are 28 spokes on rear to much? Will 24 be enough? Weight difference is only 22g.
Whole wheelset should be around 1532g.
All suggestions are welcome!


Attachments:
circusmonkeyFH.jpg
circusmonkeyFH.jpg [ 3.21 KiB | Viewed 1568 times ]
circusmonkeyRH.jpg
circusmonkeyRH.jpg [ 82.18 KiB | Viewed 1568 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:54 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
The rims should be pretty stiff and the hub has good bracing angles. So 24h should be fine. But if you have historically broken a lot of spokes, and these are training wheels, 28h isn't a bad idea. As you point out 22g more is quite small.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:06 pm 
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Go with as many spokes if you can for training wheels.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:53 pm 
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Posts: 83
I need a badass wheel builder in SD who is not afraid of the farsports hoops-David

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:58 pm 
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I think you will have to define badass to find your builder. Most wheelbuilders are a little geeky as we build wheels. It a bit geeky but thats o.k.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Posts: 187
rainerhq -- thanks so much for posting the Circus Monkey diagrams; I've been thinking about a pair of them.

Are you running a Campy or Shimano freehub? I'm looking for the rear dimensions for Campy.

Looks like the flange to center dimensions are measured to the outside of the flange vs center of the flange. Do have the measurements to center of flange?

Thanks!


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Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:13 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:46 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:08 am
Posts: 88
KLabs wrote:
Mackers wrote:
KLabs wrote:
Hub: Novatec F482SB, with ABG freehub, 32H 4xDS 2xNDS ... this lacing should give almost equal DS/NDS spoke tension

I've seen this mentioned in this thread before, and it is absolutely not true.
Even if you could lace a 32h hub 4x, the nds tension would still be only 50%.

Hi Mackers, I checked a wheel that's laced 32H 4xDS 2xNDS, and the DS deflection tension was 62 and NDS was 57. DS was very tight. Not sure what hub was used but it was nothing special, and the rim was an eyeleted 20-22mm deep Alex rim (shallow rim). 14g SS spokes were used. I believe it was a 9 or 10 spd hub :-)

I am not sure what 62 equates to in kgf but it would be well over 100, probably more like 120 to 130 or higher.
Lets say DS spokes were 120kgf then the NDS spokes would be approx 110kgf ... that is quite even/close, about 90% DS :-)

Looking at the 4x lacing, the spokes pass initially over the spoke heads ( first cross), so I agree 4x on a 28H would depend on the flange dia and probably not a good idea, but possible. It would appear that a 4x lacing would be better done on a 36H hub, but can easily be done on a 32H hub and even a 28H hub (depending on hub and rim).

Comments welcome :-)


4x on a 28 hole wheel would seem to be too extreme. The optimal orientation is for the spoke to be exiting the flange perpendicular to an imaginary line crossing the center of the hub and the center of the specific spoke hole used.


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