The wheelbuilding thread

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bm0p700f

Post subject: Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:48 pm

in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 839
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K

The 2x 3x thing works the other way around to the wheels you had built to increase the tesnion balance a little bit. This is nly useful on builds with a low tension balance with rims that have a low max tension limit. The improvement is small though and withing noise. Doing the differential lacing the way it was done for you actually decreases the tension balance so that lacing pattern makes little sense. You would however get the most of the tortional stiffness benefits of a 3x build and the lateral stiffnes benefits of a 2x build. There is a website written by someone who swears by it though and they justify it by force vector diagrams taling the line it improve lateral stiffness. It does in theory but at the expense of a bit of tension balance. As 3x both sides has worked well for so many years it does not make much practical difference.

For the build you are doing I would lace 3x boths sides unless you rim is a very low tension one then 2xDS and 3xNDS.

I think tension balance is the main reason now for radial DS lacing on some factory wheelsets.

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Calnago

Post subject: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:28 am

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm
Posts: 792

Thanks again, and yes, I remember that discussion about 2xDS and 3xNDS. However, I didn't really study it or give it much credence mostly because 3x both sides for Campy 32 hole low profile wheels seems to have worked just fine for years. Also, the wheels I have that were built 3xDS and 2xNDS also have had no problems over many thousands of miles. I'll have to look into the theory of what you're saying a bit more later. Interesting.

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Dimitri

Post subject: Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:46 am

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:07 am
Posts: 76

any more input on this?

Dimitri wrote:

Planning my 2013 race wheel set.

Here for critique/thoughts.

Use - Criterium, maybe the odd fast group ride/KOM attempt.

Rider weight - 80-87 kg (185cm, do contest as many sprint finishes as i can).

Rims - Gigantex 50mm Tubular 20H front, 24H rear.

Front hub - BHS SLF71W 20H.

Rear hub - Still under consideration. I am leaning towards using a ZIPP traditional 208 rear in 32H - which i will lace 24 triplet (i already own this hub).

dimensions -

L PCD 46.25mm L center to Flange 37.32mm

R PCD 58.25mm R center to Flange 17.18mm

http://www.zipp.com/_media/images/suppo ... sy-001.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

i guess the NDS spacing is the possible issue???

Spokes is another concern. I want to use an aero spoke, CX-ray is the usual first choice but im wanting/thinking i'd prefer to use a heavier guage NDS spoke my last wheelset was a similar build and i did pop one NDS spoke on an off track excursion, but i also think using a heavier guage NDS spoke will build a stiffer wheel?
Normal CX/DT new aero etc dont seem to be available anywhere i can find.

So i'm considering MAC 494 for the NDS (and then 424 for the DS) some input on these would be good too.

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Wookieopolis

Post subject: Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:04 pm

Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:28 am
Posts: 72
Location: Berkeley, CA

I used Mac 424s on my recent build and have had no issues with them, either in the build process or on the road. I haven't put many miles on the wheels yet though. The price is certainly attractive and if they hold up in the long term they should prove to be a great alternative to CX-Rays. A lot of the wheelsets coming from China use these spokes and I haven't seen any complaints.

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Anders

Post subject: Triplet lacing calculation

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:41 am

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 757
Location: Mårlset, Denmark

I'm building up a wheel set based on Specialized Roval hubs and have a hard time figuring out how to calculate the spoke length on the rear DS. The hubs use straight pull spokes all over.

The rear hubs specs based on my own measurements are:

NDS flange diameter: 27mm
DS flange diameter: 62mm
NDS flange to center distance: 43mm
DS flange to center distance: 16.5mm

The hubs will be laced to Reynolds Assault rims from 2009 (ERD 566mm) with internal Pillar Hex nipples (10mm), so need to correct for this. As you can see from below image the triplet lacing on the DS has adjacent crossed spoke pairs and this is exactly what confuses me when trying to put the data into a spoke calculator.

I would appreciate any help on specifying the spokes for this build.

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bm0p700f

Post subject: Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:08 pm

in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 839
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K

Found this. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89693" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2 ... 12721.html

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Anders

Post subject: Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:03 pm

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 757
Location: Mårlset, Denmark

bm0p700f wrote:

Found this. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89693" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2 ... 12721.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the links, I found them already. I have searched the internet extensively for any information regarding this special lacing and no one else but Specialized apparently use this version of the triplet lacing. Everyone else seems to either run 3x on the DS or place the NDS spokes between the DS spoke pairs and not between each pair as Specialized do. A bit hard to explain, but I hope the picture illustrates it.

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djay001

Post subject: Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:32 pm

Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:59 pm
Posts: 49

Anders wrote:

bm0p700f wrote:

Found this. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=89693" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2 ... 12721.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

can you weight your hub? i got a set of roval fusee sl E5 with the same hubset, the rear rim got some crack beside off the nipples, i will rebluid these with some new rim in the future, but i'm really interested too know the weight of these.

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Anders

Post subject: Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:16 pm

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:49 pm
Posts: 757
Location: Mårlset, Denmark

Rear hub with DT 240 internals and Shimano rotor is 216g. The type is called DT Swiss LF07 and is the 2nd generation. I'm still waiting delivery of thr front hub, bit expect it to be around 90g.

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neverwasbeen

Post subject: Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:22 pm

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:06 pm
Posts: 16

Maybe a stupid question, but if a rim manufacturer states the max tension as 130kgf, is it ok to have the average spoke tension at 130kgf? If the tension variance on the build is say +/- 5%, the highest tension spoke would be 137kgf - is this acceptable? Or is it better to drop the tensions so the average is say 125kgf and the highest tension spoke 130kgf?

The wheels I have built in the past typically have a range stated, but the archetypes I'm building just have the max stated.

Thanks.

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Beancouter

Post subject: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:31 am

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:04 pm
Posts: 74

Currently having my wheels built up by LBS. they were less than excited at the prospect as they have bad experiences with A340's. my build is on BHS hubs, CX rays, laced radial front and 2x rear. Does anyone have a view on spoke tensions or lessons learned from their own builds?

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bm0p700f

Post subject: Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:39 am

in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 839
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K

what spoke count, what you wieght riding style.... All this is impostant.

The stans alpha is good up to 1200N of tension. So a stans alpha wheel should be tensioned like a normal wheel. 1000N front and 1100-1200N rear with NDs tension to keep the wheel dished. The bitex hub has a short DS spacing I think so you will need 1200N of DS tesnion on the rear and NDS tension will be low but the wheel shoudl be stable if you are relatively smoth and you have enough spokes in the rear.

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Beancouter

Post subject: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:18 am

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:04 pm
Posts: 74

Sorry, new something was missing! 24/28

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Beancouter

Post subject: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:20 am

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:04 pm
Posts: 74

Should read whole reply! Weight 75kg - style, not particularly aggressive - typical weekend ride 60km with 4000 - 6000 feet of climbing.

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bm0p700f

Post subject: Re: The wheelbuilding thread

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:17 pm

in the industry

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Posts: 839
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K

I think you would be O.K with that. Your LBS should be able to build those fine. If they are reluctant have they said why, you could approach someone else but I would choose an hub that give a 50% tension balance ideally as alot of climbing probably means high torque on the rear wheel. I don't think the bitex hub does that but I don't know for sure as I do not use them.

You LBS is proabably worried about low NDS tension and spokes snapping as a result.

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