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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 1737
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
Mark- I think that front wheels don't need as many spokes as rears since they have better bracing angle. I build my training wheels 24f/28r or 20f/28r and race wheels 20f/24r. You might consider 28f/32r. It'll save about 25g.

I'd go with Race spokes on the DS instead of CXrays. I like CXrays but they are no stiffer than Lasers- they are Lasers that have had their center section further worked to flatten them for an aerodynamic shape. They have the same cross section therefore the same stiffness. The working makes them a bit stronger in the center section but that's rarely where spokes break. When I use them it's on aero wheels and I use them all around.


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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:43 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:17 pm 
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Formerly known as wassertreter

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
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Location: Pedal Square
I'm considering a custom build with American Classic 350 rims and Novatec hubs, for longer self-supported rides. Being around 77kg, would you recommend 28/28 spokes, or 32/32? (I prefer my wheels to match, unless the front is radial, and that's the two available configurations). Would I get away with 28/28 3x ? Thanks.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:21 pm 
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I need some help from the experts. I have a handbuilt set of velocity escape tubulars using BHS hubs. Spokes are 24 radially laces aerolites in the front, and 28 2x DT comps in the back. I keep breaking rear spoke nipples every few weeks, and it's getting really annoying. All the nipples are alloy. Would changing to brass keep them from breaking, or is there something else to this?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Which nipples are you using? It could be down to the angle the spoke eters the rim. If you were using brass nipples then the spoke would probably break but as you are using alloy nipples I suppose the nipples could go first. The other reason could be if the the spokes are too long and you have the builder has wond the spokes on past the thread on the spoke. This would deform the thread in the nipple weakening the nipple causing failure eventually.

There are a number of reason's but changing to brass may not solve the problem. I use Apim alloy nipples and have not enountered this problem I hope I won't either.

Check the angle the spoke is entering the rim first.

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Last edited by bm0p700f on Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:44 am 
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nipples breaking is sometimes said to be caused by having too short a spoke.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:50 am 
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Imo it is most often caused by too short a spoke. The nipple head is holding on in tension and it basically pulls apart. Sometimes I use hex head nipples even if I will never use an internal wrench, just because the head is thicker. Depends on a lot of things, accuracy of measurements, even-only spoke types making length choice a tough call, etc. The DT hex head nipples still have a driver flat in them, just higher up. The Sapim ones do not.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:58 am 
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I dont think hexagonal are stronger than classic - they are same strength as all. Dimension at rim hole is important. And yes if spoke is not trough that point (too short) all forces are on nipple that is not designed for - chop its head off :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:36 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
wassertreter- go 32h 3x in the rear. AC 350 rims are flexy.

jaketim- if the nipples are breaking at the heads it's probable that the spokes are too short. The spoke end should be flush with the bottom of the slot in end of the nipple, or sticking out by 1mm or so. Being slightly short, like 1mm, is probably ok. The spoke reinforces the nipple head. Brass is stronger so brass nipples are less likely to break due to short spokes.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:43 pm
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Location: Seattle
Don't have these parts in my local shop so I'm hoping somebody can confirm some measurements before I order spokes, etc. It's also been a really long time since I built a wheel (like 10 years). The values in RED are those which I haven't been able to find an actual spec for.

Front:
Shimano Dura Ace HB-9000, 24h
center to flange of 35.5/35.5
flange diam of 38.0/38.0
<-- These measurements based off the 7900 hub. Are they the same for 9000?!

DT Swiss RR 440, 24h
ERD of 599
12mm alloy nipples, DT aerolite spokes, radial
Spocalc and DTool gives me a spoke length of 281.5 --> 282mm spokes.

Rear:
Powertap G3, 130mm/Shimano/28h
center to flange of 38.0/17.4
flange diam of 57.0/57.0

DT Swiss RR 440 Asymmetric, 28h
ERD of 599
Offset = 2.25??

12mm alloy nipples, DT aerolite spokes, 2x both sides

Spocalc gives me a spoke length of 283.9 and 281.9, not including the offset. Since DTool doesn't seem to alter spoke length when you switch between the RR440 and the RR440 Asym, I am assuming DTool doesn't account for the rim's offset in any way. Also, since their catalog doesn't specify the offset amount and I don't have one to measure, I'm left to 'guessing'. What I did was download a cross-sectional diagram of the RR440 Asymmetric rim and crop/resize it in photoshop to 210x210 pixels to match up with the rim's 21mm width and 21mm profile depth. Then I measured from the edge to the center of the spoke bed and got an offset of 2.25mm. Can anybody confirm this? I know a mm one way or another won't make much difference but I was just curious if this is an accurate value. When I plug that value into Spocalc, I am left with 283.6/282.0 --> 284/282 spokes.

Does all this jive?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:56 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
I wish the RR440 was available in the U.K but Madsion are not importing it. If you buy the rims and hubs first and then measure there will be no guessing.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:17 pm 
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I just want to throw out a random endorsement for bikehubstore.com . For those who haven't purchased from them before, I recommend you do so next time you have a need. For those who have done business with them already, you know what great guys they are to work with.

:beerchug:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:29 am 
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I am building a few sets (2 sets complete, 3 to go) of traditional wheels using Ambrosio Nemesis rims (32 hole), Campy Record Hubs and DT Spokes. I pretty much stick to traditional 3x both sides lacing using DT Swiss Competition spokes and brass nipples. I have not had problems with this setup and kind of just like the symmetry of 3x lacing both sides on the rear. They ride beautifully but thought I might experiment with using DT Revolutions on the non drive side of the rear and was wondering about the real world differences between

1) Using DT Revs on the non drive side but maintaining a 3x pattern
2) Using DT Revs on the non drive side but using a 2x pattern
3) sticking with DT Comps on the non drive but using a 2x pattern.

Can you notice any difference in ride quality or are the benefits of using the lighter Revolutions strictly due to the added stretch preventing them from going slack as easily? Would using the Revolutions render the wheel a little less stiff laterally, or would it even be noticeable.

Just curious in advance of the builds as to what I might expect. I built one set using DT comps 3x all the way around both wheels which I love to ride. I built a second set the only difference using DT Revolutions on the rear NDS but still 3x. However, they are slightly short at 300mm as they weren't available in longer sizes as far as I know. It still bugs me that they're a bit short so I may rebuild them anyway. Haven't ridden them.

Any thoughts are appreciated, especially from the more experienced wheelbuilders. I'm having fun experimenting and will learn first hand through the exercise, so in the end I'll be able to report back with my actual experience.

Thanks

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:35 am 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Just my opinion 32 spoke wheels should be 3x unless the hub flanges are so large that 2x is required. I would use the thing revs/laser spokes NDS and comps/Race spokes DS. Ride quality is the same, in theory the wheel should be more durable due spoke stretch (in practice it may make little difference except on low tension limit rims) and it will be lighter. Wheel stiffness does not suffer to an extent that it is problem i my experience but the wheel is less stiff. A wheel only has to be stiff enough and it will be.

Campagolo record hubs, very nice I want a set with H+ son Archetype rims or Velocity A23's. I am going to have to do that.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Posts: 739
Location: Winterpeg
xnavalav8r wrote:
I just want to throw out a random endorsement for bikehubstore.com . For those who haven't purchased from them before, I recommend you do so next time you have a need. For those who have done business with them already, you know what great guys they are to work with.

:beerchug:

Second this one.

Just ordered the BHS c472w rims, BHS hubs and Sapim Race spokes, 24 radial front/28 2 cross rear. Should be here next week. Of course I forgot to order QR's.

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Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:40 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:05 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
Just my opinion 32 spoke wheels should be 3x unless the hub flanges are so large that 2x is required. I would use the thing revs/laser spokes NDS and comps/Race spokes DS. Ride quality is the same, in theory the wheel should be more durable due spoke stretch (in practice it may make little difference except on low tension limit rims) and it will be lighter. Wheel stiffness does not suffer to an extent that it is problem i my experience but the wheel is less stiff. A wheel only has to be stiff enough and it will be.

Campagolo record hubs, very nice I want a set with H+ son Archetype rims or Velocity A23's. I am going to have to do that.


Thanks @bm0p00f. I was hoping you'd offer your opinion on this. I have only ever built standard "classic" type wheels using Campy hubs and low profile rims. I have an older set of Open Pros on older Campy hubs built by someone else using the 2x NDS, 3x DS pattern but I kind of prefer 3x both sides aesthetically, and in practice have not found this to be any problem at all using Campy hubs but got curious about experimenting with 2x on the NDS. My more exoitc wheels like Boras are factory built of course.

Being on the larger side of "waiflike" myself, I think I'll err on the stronger side and build with DT Comps both sides, 3x both sides as well. Same for the front.

Thanks again.

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