HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Blog NEW Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:56 am 
Offline
Shop Owner

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 1976
Location: NoVA/DC
Riding position was similar, r5 was where I put the saddle and bars, dogma2 was not mine but I hopped on it and it felt Damn near perfect. Also had short rides on ones too big and too small, besides the geometric issues associated with that, they shared the same feeling of reassuring solidity when leaning at any angle, esp when also hitting some small bumps. R5 feels good, but "regular", or what I've come to expect from bikes.
Maybe part of it all is that I didn't EXPECT to like the dogma. I'm a numbers, testing, proof- type of guy. that's why I say the dogma is greater than the sum of its parts. On paper, it looks like a pile of poo.
Which one is stiffer? I don't know, my test facility is out of order. For STW I'm pretty sure the r5 wins.
Venge is also nice, nicest balance of aero to -everything else versus others, s5 included. s5 post is a bit limiting (no carbon rails, some saddles in the front position interfere with the back top of post), I'm a believer in tapered steerers, cable routing is not-quite-there. And of course the venge looks a lot better.


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:56 am 


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:49 am
Posts: 2098
Location: Denmark
jonster wrote:
Grill, would you notice the difference between carrying an an extra tube, or a mini-pump in your back pocket on a climb? Or a couple of gulps of water gone from your bottle? We're talking pretty minimal grammage differences - you might perhaps notice a little less rolling resistance from featherweight tubs vs heavier deep sections on steep climbs but otherwise these weight differences will have no impact on speed or performance. The irony of this forum is that what makes a great bike and a great performing bike is not purely the bike's weight. And I certainly don't think Dave Brailsford lies awake at night worrying if team Sky's 'porky' bikes are holding them back.


When do people realize that the big pro teams DOES NOT ride stock frames. :roll: They get special layups to have them lighter or more usual, stiffer and sturdier. For gods sake, Saxo's SL4 frames weighed over 1200 grams last year and were stiff as a board.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:03 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:57 pm
Posts: 3779
Location: Vicenza
+1
Same with HTC's Scott, etc etc; never take what pros ride as an example.

_________________
ciclismo-espresso.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:33 pm
Posts: 241
Mario Jr. wrote:

When do people realize that the big pro teams DOES NOT ride stock frames. :roll: They get special layups to have them lighter or more usual, stiffer and sturdier. For gods sake, Saxo's SL4 frames weighed over 1200 grams last year and were stiff as a board.


garmin had an end of the year sale of their Cervelos from 2012. that might have been something to think about buying.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:44 pm
Posts: 134
Mario Jr. wrote:
When do people realize that the big pro teams DOES NOT ride stock frames. :roll: They get special layups to have them lighter or more usual, stiffer and sturdier. For gods sake, Saxo's SL4 frames weighed over 1200 grams last year and were stiff as a board.



Exactly, the dogma weighs what it does for a reason -
not because Pinarello can't design a lighter frame


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:17 pm
Posts: 21
Mario Jr. wrote:
jonster wrote:
Grill, would you notice the difference between carrying an an extra tube, or a mini-pump in your back pocket on a climb? Or a couple of gulps of water gone from your bottle? We're talking pretty minimal grammage differences - you might perhaps notice a little less rolling resistance from featherweight tubs vs heavier deep sections on steep climbs but otherwise these weight differences will have no impact on speed or performance. The irony of this forum is that what makes a great bike and a great performing bike is not purely the bike's weight. And I certainly don't think Dave Brailsford lies awake at night worrying if team Sky's 'porky' bikes are holding them back.


When do people realize that the big pro teams DOES NOT ride stock frames. :roll: They get special layups to have them lighter or more usual, stiffer and sturdier. For gods sake, Saxo's SL4 frames weighed over 1200 grams last year and were stiff as a board.


I can't find it now but I think Cervelo said they had extended the wheel base of some R3s for Roubaix (this might have been the R3 mud) but other than that the pro bikes were stock. Same post from Cervelo said may pros got R3 s instead of R5s due to cost and lighter weight was of no benefit)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:41 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:49 am
Posts: 2098
Location: Denmark
Can't tell if Garmins bikes are stock, but I can tell you that I have first hand knowledge that Saxo, HTC, Katusha, Gerolsteiner all have or had special layups for the team frames. I would be surprised if this is not the case for most pro-tour teams.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 258
Interesting topic. Years back, Bicycle Guide commissioned construction of two identical geometry framesets, one of Columbus SLX, the other of lighter gauge Tange Prestige. No stickers IDd the tubeset used.

All testers preferred the heavier Columbus bike blind - claimed it handled better and rode better/smoother. Everyone was surprised that the Columbus bike won, given that the Tange bike used higher end steel, and was lighter etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:27 pm
Posts: 164
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland
jonster wrote:
To give you an idea of weight i think your build as detailed if you got a Dogma2 and built with SRAM red and c24s will come in just under 7kg with pedals (assuming medium frame size, light finishing kit / tyres).

My build as per pic: Dogma 2 CDE 55cm (comes with seat post), DT swiss c46 carbon clincher wheelset, dura Ace 7900 groupset and pedals, richey carbon matrix 110mm stem, richey carbon evo bars 44cm, fizik arione cx saddle, conti 4000s tyres / bonti racelite tubes, elite pase carbon cage x 2, Spesh classic tape, control tech QRs
7.1kg including pedals & cages


Hell, I'm feeling pretty good right now. My Steel Bianchi comes in at 7.37 kg. and that is with a 1500g wheelset on it and Chorus crank/bb.

_________________
09 Pinella w/ Record 10spd
http://1spd.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 7412
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
spud wrote:
Interesting topic. Years back, Bicycle Guide commissioned construction of two identical geometry framesets, one of Columbus SLX, the other of lighter gauge Tange Prestige. No stickers IDd the tubeset used.

All testers preferred the heavier Columbus bike blind - claimed it handled better and rode better/smoother. Everyone was surprised that the Columbus bike won, given that the Tange bike used higher end steel, and was lighter etc.


... I, literally, just yawned after reading that. Nothing personal, but did you miss the whole part about time-on-the-bike being a factor as discussed earlier in this thread?

How long were these testers riding the bikes blind? Surely not more than a few minutes.
Given even a few hours, the riders will get used to a lighter bike (again, if they are confident) and will descend perfectly fine (again, confidence an issue) and would probably not go back to a heavier bike give the same geometries.

Confidence.
Geometries.
Time.

_________________
Exp001 || TeamLACBC


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 258
you yawn, I shrug - I don't have a dog in this fight. Maybe I shouldn't confuse chasing light weight with chasing a bike that works better.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:32 pm
Posts: 7412
Location: Los Angeles / Glendale, California
>Maybe I shouldn't confuse chasing light weight with chasing a bike that works better.

:lol:

Ok, care to elaborate?

There are people (such as myself) who use sub-13lb bikes on ultra distance races.
They *must* be reliable, and they *are* light. They *must* give enough confidence to tackle an unknown descent in the dark, and they do.

So... what are you getting at?

Having ridden a Pinarello Dogma and other "high end" bikes that are by comparison heavy, I can honestly say that the difference in performance is not that significant to frames that are lighter. Heck, the A2J Rolo is very light and has a higher lab-tested stiffness quality than Pinarello... and it's damn light! And it doesn't look like it's there to be posed against a wall, it looks like it's meant to be ridden.


It's quite funny what we're finding, actually.

About a decade ago, there were curmudgeons saying "Carbon will spontaneously explode!!!!!!!!1!!!". Look where we are now.
About a decade ago, there were curmudgeons saying "A carbon bike will never be as light as a Ti bike!". Look where we are now.
About a decade ago, there were curmudgeons saying "A carbon bike always be unaffordable". Look where we are now ($600 gets you light & reliable)

Now?
Curmudgeons saying "A light bike isn't reliable". Utter bullsh*t.
Curmudgeons saying "A light frame isn't stiff". Again, bullsh*t.
Curmudgeons saying "A heavier bike always has better handling." I think the bull is running out of feces.

_________________
Exp001 || TeamLACBC


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:49 am
Posts: 2098
Location: Denmark
:goodpost: :exactly:

There's nothing that warrants that an extremely expensive frame as a Dogma should be in that weigh class. A lot of bikes are as stiff/planted/stable as a Dogma with considerable lower weight.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:17 pm
Posts: 21
Mario Jr. wrote:
:goodpost: :exactly:

There's nothing that warrants that an extremely expensive frame as a Dogma should be in that weigh class. A lot of bikes are as stiff/planted/stable as a Dogma with considerable lower weight.


I agree and this is part of what makes me think the engineering could be better.


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:28 am 


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:29 am
Posts: 3563
Location: Athens, Greece
Manufacturers like Colnago or Pinarello do not care (even if they obviously can) to make a light frame because they know that at the end the frame's weight itself does not matter. They care to make a frame that performs great and looks like a precious item. You may blame them for that if you want. I don't.

_________________
My 6696gr Cipollini Bond
My 8618gr Colnago Master X-light
My 9745gr Pinarello Dyna


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Exabot [Bot], MattSoutherden and 28 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. Dogma 60.1 (2009) vs. Dogma 65.1 geometry

in Road

Permon

1

780

Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:22 am

haydos View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. The all new Pinarello Dogma F8...

[ Go to page: 1 ... 5, 6, 7 ]

in Road

ichobi

96

14025

Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:25 pm

ultimobici View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. SiSL2 for Dogma F8

in Road

gregalfa

1

685

Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:24 am

hornedfrog View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Help me pick a new bike? Dogma f8?

[ Go to page: 1, 2, 3, 4 ]

in Road

joseph42s

48

3233

Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:47 am

joseph42s View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Dogma and tire sizes

in Road

manne

9

653

Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:04 pm

AndreLM View the latest post


It is currently Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:56 am

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB