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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:09 am 
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There was an article today by Fairwheel about Shimano 11-speed compatible hubs.

http://fairwheelbikes.com/cycling-blog/ ... speed.html

According to the article, the WI T11 hubs have a drive side offset of only 16 mm and a tension ratio of 43% and thereby has the poorest tension ratio amount all the compared hubs.

What is the significance of this?

Is this serious enough that we should not be using WI T11 hubs?

If this were bad, then why would WI design such a hub?

I am not trying to flame White Industry hubs - I have two custom training wheelsets using the MI 5 front hub and the H3 rear hub that have remained true and perfect for years and over 6000 miles. And, I was in the process of ordering a racing wheelset with the WI T11 hubs.

Should I use a different hub or wait until the new 11speed compatible Chris King R45 is released to build up my new wheelsets?

Mark

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Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:09 am 


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:36 am 
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it's fine.

They're good hubs and with modern spokes and rims you're unlikely to have any issues.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:33 am 
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Have a read of this thread:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels ... ost4241394


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:55 pm 
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BdaGhisallo wrote:
Have a read of this thread:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels ... ost4241394" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Thanks.

To be honest, I read this thread a while ago but did not quite understand it. I have sense re-read the thread and have goggled the parts I was confused by - still somewhat confused. But the gist is that the wheel with T11 should be okay if built with a wider, stiffer, stronger rim, with higher spoke counts are used, and/or by professional custom builders.

Once again, thank you.

Mark


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:47 pm 
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The article would be more useful if they posted the tension ratio of a Campy hub, that has changed little or none since 1998 and is 9/10/11 speed compatible.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Answered in the wheel building thread.

If you post the same question in multiple places the discussion becomes fragmented.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:26 pm 
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MarkThailand wrote:
BdaGhisallo wrote:
Have a read of this thread:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels ... ost4241394" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Thanks.

To be honest, I read this thread a while ago but did not quite understand it. I have sense re-read the thread and have goggled the parts I was confused by - still somewhat confused. But the gist is that the wheel with T11 should be okay if built with a wider, stiffer, stronger rim, with higher spoke counts are used, and/or by professional custom builders.

Once again, thank you.

Mark


The salient point is that, given a set rim and spokes, the further is the DS flange from the centerline of the hub, the more laterally stiff a rear wheel can be made. There are ways to ameliorate the effects of a hub that has a low DS CTFlange dimension, but if you don't have to do so, why bother?

Sure the T11 built with a wide and stiff rim, with lots of strong spokes, could be laterally stiff, though an Alchemy hub would be stiffer. The question for you, and your wheelbuilder, is whether the T11 will be stiff enough for you.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:40 pm 
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DaveS wrote:
The article would be more useful if they posted the tension ratio of a Campy hub, that has changed little or none since 1998 and is 9/10/11 speed compatible.


But Campa themselves moved on to offset rear rims and triplet lacing.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:46 pm 
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Mackers wrote:
DaveS wrote:
The article would be more useful if they posted the tension ratio of a Campy hub, that has changed little or none since 1998 and is 9/10/11 speed compatible.


But Campa themselves moved on to offset rear rims and triplet lacing.



Then so should those building new Shimano 11 wheels.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:23 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
It is possible to build stable stiff wheels using campag 11 speed hubs with DS spacing of ~17mm using standard non offest rims. Higher spokes count and or stiff rims are needed though. A hub with a tension balance of 43% will result in a NDS tensions down ~510N. I have a rear wheel with a NDS tension of 480N and it is very stable,

An offset rim would be helpful but not essential. If the rider weight is not too high and the right rim and spoke count is picked all should be well.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:33 am 
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Location: Covington, WA
To mitigate these hub issues, why aren't there any quality carbon offset rims?

Design Example: the old Velocity Arrowhead OCR (Off-Center-Rim)
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/aeroheadocx.jpg/


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:16 am 
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Location: Ruidoso, NM
DaveS wrote:
Then so should those building new Shimano 11 wheels.


Triplet isn't a great solution. For a hub with a low tension ratio, using very light NDS spokes would be better. Optimally that would be spokes lighter than CX-Rays... Pillar Megas, or Sapim CX Supers. Even lighter with a larger NDS offset would be optimal.

The problem with the T11 is that the DS offset is less than it could be (by at least 1.5mm) and the NDS is greater than it should be. It's the same dimensions as the H3 C hub was, though. The Alchemy Orc will have a DS offset of ~18mm which is fine. DT S and C hubs have always had low DS offset (~16.5mm), but they paired that with a low NDS offset, so the ratio was fine... just the stiffness was poor. Not many people complained though.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:22 am 
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Location: Ruidoso, NM
UpFromOne wrote:
To mitigate these hub issues, why aren't there any quality carbon offset rims?


An offset rim is always heavier for the same strength. Plus it screws up aerodynamics. And... an offset rim make the stiffness lower, not higher. If you are in serious danger of the NDS spokes going slack because of a low tension ratio, they will help... but IMO they are not the optimal "solution" for dealing with wide cassettes.

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Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:22 am 


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:02 am 
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Location: Covington, WA
I would generally agree, but I'd bet Enve could make a helluva offset rim.

Maybe as discs take to the road, and we get more road frames with 135 rear spacing, that would help a bit.


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