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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:54 am 
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A 40H hub would be a tandem hub or BMX but the OLD on those are completley wrong and will not fit in you frame. A BMX hub also use a solid axle.

Give up on 2:1 unless you are going to use a very stiff rim i.e. stiffer than a A23. The H + plus son archetype might be stiff enough. Not to sure how it compares to the HED C2. I would just use 2x both sides and just stress relieve very throughly and use a spoke tension meter to ensure the NDS tesnions are very even as they will be low. I have managed sucessful builds with NDS tensions as low as you wil get using those hubs (miche hubs and DT Swiss RR415 rims)

In fact though 2x ds and 3x NDS will improve tension balance a bit so do this on a 28 spoke rear wheel.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:56 pm 
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eric wrote:
If the R4 hub has the spokes that thread into the hub it's not worth using them in another build. You can get spokes from Easton but they are not cheap.

In any case if the hub and rim are still good you could just replace the nipples while leaving the spokes in the same position. The wheel might not be quite as reliable as a new build using new parts but if the spokes are left in the same position it's no worse than removing tension and re-tensioning the wheel. Not like reusing spokes in a new pattern.

That'd be cheap and would leave you money to buy parts to build another set of wheels.


I think the front is the straight pull type where the spokes are in the hubs. I'll put up pics when I find time.

Being in Australia it is expensive to send to a USA shop to rebuild and return but may look into it in future as I think the hubs are still good and I think they spin nicely.

My issue is this, What am I getting by buying expensive hubs? On the attachment some ideas of components I'm thinking about, with weights and price (would like a build around the 1400g mark). Also, I can get a set of Fulcrum Racing Zero Dark Label 2013 Shimano / Sram landed in Aus for $879AUD (1435g). So what does a Tune/Alchemy KinLin build give me over a Racing Zero for the same type of Money? In turn, what does a $900 wheelset provide over some of the cheaper build options I have priced up that I could probably land in Aus for around $450 - $500 and have them built here for another $100?

Not having ridden loads of wheels is the investment worth it over a factory or cheaper wheel build? At 80 - 85kgs riding mainly flat group rides, no racing yet, and not to harsh on wheels. Any help guidance appreciated.


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File comment: Wheel Components.
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Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:56 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 5:19 pm 
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Any reason Not to use these, vs 2.0/1.8 spokes? Would be lighter.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:29 pm 
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As to what an expensive wheelset give you over a cheaper one depend on the use you are planning for it.

The expenive factory options are race wheels really. Some are more aero than other but all try to provide a durable light weight offering with high stiffness. They do use staight pull spokes though to try to improve spoke life and some other thing thing like have the spoke thread in the hub to remove the need for nipples.

If you are not a competative racer then I do think it is difficult to justify the spend. Spend less (than fulcrum racing 1) for the riding you are doing. High spoke count wheels can easily be built for 1435g for a fraction of the price of the factory wheels you are on about and provide what you need.

Alchemy hubs are pretty good though for a hub dimension stand point shame there is no U.k importer.

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Last edited by bm0p700f on Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 8:31 pm 
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IMO the RacingZero give you a very, very nice hub, with a rim/spoke package that is very hard to beat in stiffness or in weight. Those wheels are pretty tough, too. The main downside to the racing zero is if you do crash/trash it, replacement rims and spokes are very expensive.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:29 pm 
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@bm0p700f: How do you compare the Miche Box/Primato and the Novatec 291/428SBs for use in training wheels? It looks like you use both quite a bit. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:06 am 
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Fitzroy- Easton ought to be willing to send parts to you or your wheel builder rather than you sending the wheel to them.
Although that might be the way to do warranty service.

What you get with high priced hubs is either reasonably light weight with reliability and serviceability, or really light weight with less reliability and/or serviceability. I'd put White Ind, Alchemy, Chris King in the former category. I've not yet build with Tune or Soul Kozak but I'd suspect they're in the latter category.

I like hand built wheels because I can buy the parts and build them myself. Even if I am getting them built by someone else I can chose the parts or guide the builder's choices to fit my requirements. That fits my geeky do all the research personality. And I can still replace spokes if they break. With factory built wheels with proprietary spokes I am at the mercy of the factory to sell me the parts. Easton's slow to answer email but they will sell the parts, like bearings and the hub tool to install them, to me. Some factories do not want to bother with home mechanics.

Since I discovered that people would hand build wheels for me (and later that I could build them myself) I have not bought a factory wheel. If someone made a set that fit all my needs I'd consider it, but only if they did not use proprietary spokes.

So you can place my opinion- I'm a masters racer, not a bearded SPD-sandal wearing retro grouch.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:17 am 
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thisisatest wrote:
IMO the RacingZero give you a very, very nice hub, with a rim/spoke package that is very hard to beat in stiffness or in weight. Those wheels are pretty tough, too. The main downside to the racing zero is if you do crash/trash it, replacement rims and spokes are very expensive.

eric wrote:
Fitzroy- Easton ought to be willing to send parts to you or your wheel builder rather than you sending the wheel to them.
Although that might be the way to do warranty service.

What you get with high priced hubs is either reasonably light weight with reliability and serviceability, or really light weight with less reliability and/or serviceability. I'd put White Ind, Alchemy, Chris King in the former category. I've not yet build with Tune or Soul Kozak but I'd suspect they're in the latter category.

I like hand built wheels because I can buy the parts and build them myself. Even if I am getting them built by someone else I can chose the parts or guide the builder's choices to fit my requirements. That fits my geeky do all the research personality. And I can still replace spokes if they break. With factory built wheels with proprietary spokes I am at the mercy of the factory to sell me the parts. Easton's slow to answer email but they will sell the parts, like bearings and the hub tool to install them, to me. Some factories do not want to bother with home mechanics.

Since I discovered that people would hand build wheels for me (and later that I could build them myself) I have not bought a factory wheel. If someone made a set that fit all my needs I'd consider it, but only if they did not use proprietary spokes.

So you can place my opinion- I'm a masters racer, not a bearded SPD-sandal wearing retro grouch.


Thanks all. This is my exact dilemma. Buy Factory, Easton - Fulcrum and be at the Factories mercy for expensive parts and service, or buy and build knowing a builder can swap and change with ease. Combined with the longevity question. Based on experience, good factory wheels last about 3-4 years (20,000kms) before spokes start to go (no hub issues to date) and I need to change. Will these fancy hubs Tune, Alchemy be reliable for ??? 5+ years to make them a viable proposition?

@eric, Alchemy servicable? do they not need a special tool for the rear hub? I'd need to find a builder with one to start with!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:26 am 
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Handbuilts every time too as you get exactly what you need. Servcing is alot cheaper like free hub bodies. Also handbuilts can do everything a factory wheelset can. I will never buy a factory wheelset again. I don't even sell them or offer them in the shop.

As for the Miche racing box vs Novatec hubs.

Miche do two hubs the Primato (black with black skewers) and the Racing box RG2 (silver with red skewers). Both are 435g per pair. Rear 290g and front 145g. The rear hub comes in the HG or campag ED10 spline for 9/10/11 speed.

The front hub is rated for radial lacing and has a 3.6mm thick flange. PCD = 40mm and flange to centre = 32mm spoke hole dia= 2.6mm. 2x 6001 bearings used in this hub. The finish seems to be salt resistant as well. I don't wash my bike much and ride in all weathers and pitting is not a big problem. The bearings also seem very durable my first set are in my wife bike now and have 7000 miles or so without a bearing change. There is proper preload adjustment on these hubs as well buy an end cap with a grub screw to lock in place. Available from RJ chickens (distibutor) in pairs of 28H, 32H or 36H drillings or through the Miche agent as seperate hubs in 24H, 28H, 32H and 36H. I buy them seperatley.

The rear is as well finished as the front. 2x 6001 bearing are used in the shell with a further two bearing in the freehub body. Preload adjusment is the same as on the front hub. The freehub body is a cheap part at around £30. I have not worn one out yet. I use campag and the steel campag veloce seperate sprockets have not intended the splines. A 105 cassette will however cause some intends on the HG splines though. The flanges are also 3.6mm thick at the rear. PCD =46mm (NDS/DS) and flange spacing DS = 17mm NDS = 38mm (or is it 37mm I forget - Miche documents give 14.5mm DS flange spacing this is wrong). The rear is also availble in 24H, 28H, 32H and 36H if bough seperatley. Free hub body replacement uses 2x 5mm allen keys (a grub screw needs to be removed as well). HG and ED10 freehub bodies are interchangeable with the same end caps.

A heavy hub but for a durable training wheelset, especially if you want to use campag they are very useful.

The Novatec A291SB front hub is 80g and uses much smaller bearings (I forget which ones). PCD =30mm and flange spacing =34mm. 20H, 24H and 28H drilling. The SL version is 60 g and only comes in 20H and 24H drillings. Dimensions the same.
The Novatec F482SB (HG) and F582SB (ED10) is 245g. The rear hub has PCD DS =49mm and NDS =41mm and flange seperation DS =18mm and DS = 37mm. Drilling 20H, 24H and 28H. The SL version is 230g. The freehub body is easily replaced with 2x 5mm allen keys. There is no preload adjustment on these. They seem pretty durable though. Freehub bodies are pretty cheap as well.

I use the striaght SB version more than the SB-SL version of these hubs simply because they are cheaper and have a U.K source and 35g is not that significant in my book unless there is a strict weight goal.

I like both hubsets alot but for wheels which will see high mileage use for winter bikes, training, commuting, touring, club runs e.t.c I prefer the Miche hub set. For climbing wheels, budget WW's, amataur racing e.t.c the Novatecs get used.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Alchemy hub tool: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=86743


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:10 pm 
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From that post I assume then the special tools on the video are just a bearing press like the wheels manufacturing press and drift set which Jeremey designed. Any shop that calls it self a bike shop should have something like this anyway.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:34 pm 
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Location: Slovenia---that forest land
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Front Easton R4 Hub (I think it is the one that is a pain to rebuild on a different rim) and some pictures of the spoke nipples.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Leaning towards some hand built wheels and tossing up between Tune and Alchemy any obvious differences in my hub choice?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:54 pm 
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If you can't get it warrantied, and the rim and hub are good, why not just replace the nipples?
If you can true a wheel you can do it. Or a shop can do it for about the same labor cost as building a wheel.


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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 4:54 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Hard to see with that pic, but I'm pretty sure those are regular straight pull spokes. Only slightly more to it than a regular hub, you have to take the axle out, load all the spokes, put the axle in, then continue with the build.
If the nipples are the only problem, I would only replace the nipples.


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