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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:27 pm 
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FWIW, I have one bike with an 11 speed crank and drivetrain, except for a Chorus 10 QS FD. It takes 4 clicks to cover the full range of travel and works perfectly. I've never dropped a chain, with the 50/34 crank. The pre-2009 QS FDs have a longer lever arm that makes it impossible to cover the full range of travel with 3 clicks, particularly with the wider cage and narrower chain. This frame does have a barrel adjuster, so I can dial in the cable tension easily.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:17 pm 
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Hi,

Quote:
The pre-2009 QS FDs have a longer lever arm that makes it impossible to cover the full range of travel with 3 clicks


FWIW :mrgreen: The length of the lever arm effects the amount of force required to make it move. It does not in any way effect the range of that movement. IOW it will move sooner for the same amount of force.
What happens with the longer FD lever is that it runs out of range at the lever arm side since the movement to pull ratio is no longer what it should be.
That may well explain why the extra click is required to make the FD span the full swing between both chainrings.

This is however typical of such a QS FD once it is put to use without the accompanying QS shifter and as such is not really 11S related but rather QS design related.

I didn't know they reverted to a shorter lever arm later on. I think the longer lever had little to no effect on response time anyhow. You could just as well use an old non QS FD with QS shifter to the same effect really.

Ciao, ;)

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Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:17 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:46 pm 
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fdegrove:

Why not concentrate on helpful answers, rather than BS. I've been a mechanical engineer for over 30 years, so you've got no knowledge that exceeds mine. I understand how lever arms work. You're also wrong about the lever arm. If the cable side is made longer, it will affect the range of motion and it will also reduce the force required to make the shift. The longer arm makes the shift easier but requires an extra click to cover the same range of cage travel.

FYI, the only difference between a QS shifter and previous models is less dead travel from the finger lever. The front rachet was changed to eliminate most of the dead travel and earlier models can be retrofitted with only one very inexpensive part. Campy used a longer lever arm on the cable side, to make shifting easier with the QS shifter. All shifters after that introduction have the QS feature, but it's no longer advertised as an "improvement". In other words, a QS shifter does not pull a different amount of cable per click than the earlier models. Only the dead travel (finger lever movement with no cable pull) has been changed.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:59 pm 
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[quote="DaveS"]fdegrove:

Why not concentrate on helpful answers, rather than BS. I've been a mechanical engineer for over 30 years, so you've got no knowledge that exceeds mine. I understand how lever arms work. You're also wrong about the lever arm. If the cable side is made longer, it will affect the range of motion /[quote]

In his defense, you never said anything about the cable side of the lever in your previous post.....lets not be so quick to bite someone's head off, shall we? Can't we all just get along!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:29 am 
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btompkins0112 wrote:

In his defense, you never said anything about the cable side of the lever in your previous post.....lets not be so quick to bite someone's head off, shall we? Can't we all just get along!


If you don't have direct experience and actual knowledge of how the products differ, you've got no business arguing about how they work. I've owned all but the 2009+ 10 speed FD models. I changed all of my bikes over to 11 speed , starting late in 2008. When the 11 speed FDs came out, there were many postings about the shorter lever arm on the cable side and differences in how the cable was attached. A lot of people routed the cable incorrectly, which made the lever arm far too short to work properly.

I'm still using my 2008 Chorus 10 speed FD with 11 speed, and it works fine, as long as you don't try to make it work with only 3 clicks of the finger lever. Even the latest 11 speed FDs will work fine with 4 clicks, as long as the limit screws are set properly. All you're doing is using a click to provide some extra cable tension. With frames lacking a barrel adjuster, it's often too much work to dial-in the FD to work with the minimum 3-clicks. There will be no chain drop if 4 clicks are used.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:45 am 
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I never questioned your knowledge or experience so your defensive post is unwarranted. Pretty sure fdegrove has similar experience with Campy, as well. My comment was directed toward the need for civility, and that was all.

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:53 am 
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Hi,

You know, some of us don't actually have to own anything to understand how things work.
What I told you in my post above yours is really no different from what you're saying. The only difference is that you're not really reading it, are you?

Funny how I can set up any QS FD for both 10 and 11S systems using only 3 clicks.

So, if the 08 Chorus FD is QS (which it should be) then it should be possible to set it up for 3 clicks just the same.

Quote:
Even the latest 11 speed FDs will work fine with 4 clicks, as long as the limit screws are set properly. All you're doing is using a click to provide some extra cable tension. With frames lacking a barrel adjuster, it's often too much work to dial-in the FD to work with the minimum 3-clicks. There will be no chain drop if 4 clicks are used.


Ah, now we get there. It's not that it's not possible. It's just too much hassle for a mechanical engineer with 30 years of experience. Right.....

Funny also how after so many years some seem to think to know more about the stuff than even the designers do. Funny, funny....

Quote:
There will be no chain drop if 4 clicks are used.


Only if and when you know how to use them properly. With 3 clicks the chance of a chain drop is reduced to a virtual zero.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:26 pm 
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It seems obvious to my why a 10 speed FD might need an extra click to work with 11 speed. The cage is wider than needed and chain is narrower than the FD was designed to shift, so there is more space between the cage and chain. More cage movement (and cable travel) is required.

I've never had a problem setting up an 11 speed FD to work with 3 clicks, even on frames without a barrel adjuster.

My 10 speed QS FD needs that fourth click to work properly, with the cable properly attached. One difference with the 10 speed QS lever arm is that the cable can be installed either of two ways, with slightly different results. I've got my cable routed correctly, with the cable going over the guide tab, then around the clamp bolt. The wrong way to route the cable is between the guide tab and clamp bolt. This routing shortens the effective lever arm and should increase the effort required to push the finger lever. Oddly enough, it still works with the 10 speed QS FD, but try the same thing with a current 11 speed FD ( like many did) and the result is an inoperable FD.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:24 pm 
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FYI
http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/do ... _table.pdf


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:22 pm 
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All that table does is tell you the obvious. Match the FD to the exact model year, number of speeds and even the type of shifter, for best results. DUH.

One of the first things I did when 11 speed came out was to test the RD travel of a 10 speed RD, hooked to 11 speed shifters. With the chain off and starting with the upper jockey properly aligned with the first cog, I shifted the largest cog and found that the jocky pulley came up short on travel. It was positioned about half way between the 10th and 11th cog. To make the actuation ratio on that RD larger, I removed the cable clamp bolt and ground the threads down to the root, in the area where the cable contacts the bolt. That effectively shortens the lever arm and increases the travel so it's a very close match with the cogs positions. I'm still running that setup on one bike, along with the QS 10 speed FD. It shifts great.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Hi,

Quote:
I've got my cable routed correctly, with the cable going over the guide tab, then around the clamp bolt.


The cable should run straight up against the guide tab of the lever of the FD, then tightened between the lever arm and the bolt's spacer at 5Nm.

http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/documenti/en/FRONT_DERAILLEUR_DOUBLE_UK_11_12.pdf

Scroll to the bottom of page 6

Quote:
One of the first things I did when 11 speed came out was to test the RD travel of a 10 speed RD, hooked to 11 speed shifters. With the chain off and starting with the upper jockey properly aligned with the first cog, I shifted the largest cog and found that the jocky pulley came up short on travel. It was positioned about half way between the 10th and 11th cog. To make the actuation ratio on that RD larger, I removed the cable clamp bolt and ground the threads down to the root, in the area where the cable contacts the bolt. That effectively shortens the lever arm and increases the travel so it's a very close match with the cogs positions. I'm still running that setup on one bike, along with the QS 10 speed FD. It shifts great.


Bis (or is it ter?) repitita placent? :roll:

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:18 pm 
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:beerchug:


Last edited by knef on Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:55 am 
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Everyone remain civil please. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:48 pm 
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http://www.campagnolo.com/repository/do ... _11_12.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good illustration of the FD cable routing. That's how I've got mine setup, but what relevance does it have to my posting about a 10 speed RD being used with 11 speed (that was put into quotes).

The instructions are only relevant to current model FDs, not older ones and not when mixing older 10 speed FDs with 11 speed.
Campy will never advise anyone to use a 10 speed FD or RD of any model year with 11 speed and they sure won't provide instructions on how to setup a mismatched system.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:43 am 
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back from the dead. I need a clarification about the setup i'm about to use soon when I get my frame back from the painters.

So I have a 2010 super record rear der. with 9 speed jockey wheels, super record front derailleur with 2008 chorus 10s cage, record 11s crankset and 10 speed shifters, cassette and chain.

Should I put back the 11s cage on the front derailleur and run 11s chain or am I fine with the 10s cage? I swapped to a 10s cage to have more room for the 10s record chain.

Will the setup on my front derailleur cause problems with the shifting?

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Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:43 am 


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