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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:28 pm 
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TW, How many calories do you consume per day?

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:28 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:28 pm 
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I don't struggle with my own training actually- its going great this year! In the past I was open to new approaches and ideas and used a lot of resources to find both what works for me and what doesn't. I also posted a list from evernote because I spend most of my day working at my job, training, or doing other activities. Quite honestly with the overwhelming responses I've received via PM and email people are very thankful that I was able to do so and are appreciative of what I've added to the discussion. They don't say the same about you.

I listed my credentials (which I never said really existed), but you've still failed to let us know why would we should trust your critical cherry picking of things. Its very easy to point out flaws, but much more difficult to provide a sound alternative that lacks its own flaws. If you were some sort of respectable expert that had produced some sort of meaningful results I would really be less skeptical and listen up, but for the past 2 years I've been on this forum you post like you have authority but the only data that you've posted shows that you have utterly terrible numbers and that's about it. I would be less critical if I had any idea of what your qualifications were and a lot more eager to listen and learn from an expert if you were one. As I said any and all knowledge I have about periodization, training, diet, etc. comes from either working alongside coaches, attending seminars and webinars, and trying to gain as much knowledge from experts as possible.

I agree that the Leangains site is terribly done and slightly odd and had a hard time really believing any of it at first. I respect Berardi and after I read his review of the various IF diets I started talking to people I knew that had tried the protocol and started reaching out to other coaches who had either used it themselves or with anything from 100m track sprinters to gymnasts. The fact that so many people from different sports had had success with it made me reconsider its merits and then I begin to see original skeptics actually find value in the following:

-Meal frequency being irrelevant.
-Overreating protein beyond basal recommendations in endurance athletes being irrelevant.
-Eating per cortisol and growth hormone patterns, or simply centering nutrients around activity.
-Forcing a monster breakfast when I'm not hungry because 'its the most important meal' is bullshit. There are potential benefits to waiting to having a big lunch so long as I and others adequately fuel their workouts and total calories in vs. out is in check.

All principles that have sound logic behind them and the most compelling studies. For me complete fasting isn't practical and my riding volume is too high, but for your average desk jockey performance enhancing dad that struggles to get 6-10hrs in a week, I don't think it could hurt to try on off days or if they ride at night. Most of these people live extremely sedentary lifestyles and even though they ride its not much. While I agreed with you in another thread that these people should focus on their power numbers first, many could benefit from weightloss for general health reasons and it wouldn't impact their training. Your average masters racer and category racer most likely isn't pushing the edge of their bodyfat limits.

I find the Atkins diets and other trend diets different in that they often completely omit something or require random ratios be it carbs, saturated fats, a certain macro split, only foods containing X nutrient or lacking Y characteristic etc. To me, IF is simply about dietary timing . I think the research is fairly compelling, but I even agreed with your conclusion in my original post that its not definitive yet. Ramadan fasting, IIRC from quickly glancing at the studies was slightly different in that the athletes trained during the fast. What I recommended above and most IF proponents recommend is not necessarily training while fasted. I tried that last year with devastating results and won't do it again. If I were to try IF I would eat before training. Also, IIRC the Ramadan fasters didn't have a set fast/feed window and in some cases it was actually much narrower than certain protocols have used.

And like Pref said, the research regarding hormones and chronic disease mitigation is something that interests me as well.

I never said anyone NEEDED those supplements, however, I think ALA is a decent thing to take if you have the money. Not essential.

As for the protein comment, for me its cheap and its help. In the US 95% of chocolate milk has corn syrup or simple sugars in it that cannot be efficiently metabolized and converted into glycogen. Most chocolate milks have high fructose corn syrup in them, which will get stored as lipids and studies show that fructose in even moderate amounts can lead to the storage of subsequent carbs as lipids http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/2 ... ou-fatter/. Combined with the fact that it also has a decent amount of fat in it its a rather poor recovery product. I order protein powder in bulk along with my girlfriend so it actually becomes a lot cheaper and gets the job done well. Not necessary, but when you cost it out its not expensive and very effective. I generally avoid any sort of synthetic powders or products otherwise and often trend towards whole foods, but most people aren't very cautious of what they actually take in and end up eating fats, fiber, and very inefficient foods in the recovery process. Not a big deal for your average 6-10hr/week rider, but for me eating habits seem to matter at the volume/intensity I normally train at and for those I've worked with. Simple reforming pre, during, and post ride nutrition has greatly helped a lot of the riders I've worked with and could help a lot of people that are relatively clueless of simple, repeatable habits.

Why try IF then? I've yet to know a single person or strength athlete that has tried IF and not had great results. So, on rest days I don't see it as being an issue and couldn't hurt to try for most people should it not impact performance. I don't think any diet makes or breaks anyone, but I wouldn't discourage anyone from trying it since there is no argument about it being detrimental.

For the average endurance athlete with an RMR of ~2,000kcal or so, its fairly easy to get enough calories in in 3 meals and sufficiently recover.

Per your original argument

The fact that you would need 1500kcal in one sitting is odd considering there are 250-275lb powerlifters that would only need 3500 kcal in an 8 hr window, which divided by 3 meals is less than 1500kcal. If you fuel your workouts properly during the workout and after, this shouldn't be very difficult to achieve.

You still have not answered the question of why this would impair recovery on a rest/recovery day. Nor have you posted a single study that lists how normal endurance athletes i.e. not pros are somehow different and can metabolize nutrients differently and thus why my recommendations in my first post do not make sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:00 pm 
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I am enjoying this thread . It would be good to see TW and KW bounce a few ideas off each other rather than try and prove each other wrong, but very interesting all the same. I always think that there are simple things that will work . If you need energy have some good carbs .If you are building muscle have some extra protein . Don't eat fat and you won't get fat etc etc but obviously as we learn more about the way the human body works things get more complicated and not everyone has the same needs .
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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:20 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
Quite honestly with the overwhelming responses I've received via PM and email people are very thankful that I was able to do so and are appreciative of what I've added to the discussion. They don't say the same about you.


Oh dear, people don't like me? That's really... not something I give a f*** about.

Though you're not the only one who gets PMs about training. :wink:

Quote:
...but you've still failed to let us know why would we should trust your critical cherry picking of things. Its very easy to point out flaws...


Why should you or anyone else trust me? That's a ludicrous statement. No-one should trust me. What you or anyone else may do however is read what I type and think. And maybe think this:- "why is an anonymous guy on the net who coaches people for free be saying this stuff? Why would he say that? It sounds like he might actually know something. Maybe I should get off my arse and do a little more research to what he is saying to see if he is full of shit or actually knows something which may or may not be the shiz."


Quote:
For me complete fasting isn't practical and my riding volume is too high, but for your average desk jockey performance enhancing dad that struggles to get 6-10hrs in a week, I don't think it could hurt to try on off days or if they ride at night. Most of these people live extremely sedentary lifestyles and even though they ride its not much. While I agreed with you in another thread that these people should focus on their power numbers first, many could benefit from weightloss for general health reasons and it wouldn't impact their training. Your average masters racer and category racer most likely isn't pushing the edge of their bodyfat limits.


And this is the thing. Most of them aren't training right to start with, even with their 6-10 hours. Yes, diets can be improved but for the very reason their training is limited is also the same reason why re-scheduling of diets or doing anything too radical is implausible. When they do eat, eat more healthy (no cheeseburgers champ), actually train right and watch happens. If power is climbing and weight not coming down then good! But this usually isn't the case. People want to have their (power) cake and eat (weight loss) it too. I have helped some in this regard, corrected training, power goes up and lo! the weight seems to just melt away over time. But all too many get in the downward spiral. Struggling, struggling to lose those last kilos but can't. And its because they aren't training hard enough and they can't because they're eating too little. Yet they can't see that.

I prefer to engineer things that weight should climb a bit with FTP, and whilst that's the plan, it rarely happens. I wonder why...

But I'll concede that most here seem to be more worried about tha abz than any sort of performance so, yeah, go the IF.


Quote:
For the average endurance athlete with an RMR of ~2,000kcal or so, its fairly easy to get enough calories in in 3 meals and sufficiently recover.


3 meals now? Awesome, I'll roll with that. Better than 2. 8 hour window... why, again?


Quote:
The fact that you would need 1500kcal in one sitting is odd considering there are 250-275lb powerlifters that would only need 3500 kcal in an 8 hr window, which divided by 3 meals is less than 1500kcal. If you fuel your workouts properly during the workout and after, this shouldn't be very difficult to achieve.


Again, we're onto 3 meals now? And WTF do powerlifter have to do with anything? I'll detail what I'm eating if you're curious in the reply to Prend.

Quote:
You still have not answered the question of why this would impair recovery on a rest/recovery day. Nor have you posted a single study that lists how normal endurance athletes i.e. not pros are somehow different and can metabolize nutrients differently and thus why my recommendations in my first post do not make sense.


And you haven't demonstrated any reason that one would change or delay their feeding schedule unnecessarily. Don't want a big breakfast because you're not hungry? Awesome, don't eat it. But do eat when those signals flood in. Delaying it to X time is silly.

That aside, I would try and eat normally or even a bit (a BIT) more on the rest day simply because on the rest day is time for the body to recover from training and allow adaptations from that training to take place. Because of this weight-centric view people see the rest day as a time to cut calories. And then they wonder why their performance is flagging and weight isn't really changing. Normal endurance athletes don't metabolise thing differently but here's the rub: if they eat more on the rest day and they aren't gaining weight, say, in a month period, why not do it? Better chance for any nutritional deficiencies to be covered, just in case, better chance for the body to repair.

There as much evidence to support this theory as there is yours.

So in summary:-
IF doesn't work for endurance athletes
A sudo form of IF can be used on rest days... for no real reason.
Performance seem to be a distant second to appearance here.
IF works awesome for strength athletes.

That about right?

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 Post subject: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:28 pm 
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I never thought I would say this but here it goes.......

Artray = the voice of reason

Ugh....that was tough to get out! [sarcasm] or was it?

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:01 pm 
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prendrefeu wrote:
TW, How many calories do you consume per day?


Ballpark guess is about 2500-3500 cal a day.

Typical meal/training schedule (highly variable but the below is "normal"):-

07:00 - coffee large latte, full cream milk 150 cal
07:30 - bircher museli approx 1/2 cup 300 cal
07:45 - ride to work -50cal
09:00 - 2nd coffee, large latte, full cream milk 150cal
Grazing - nut and dried fruit mix (almonds, cashews, macadamias, dried dates, apricots) approx 150grams ~ 400-500 cal
10:00 - green tea
10:30 - Training - 1hr30min approx -700-1000 cal
12:00 - lunch sushi - 300 cals, 1 x flavoured milk iced coffee 750mls - 550cal
Continue grazing
14:30 - 1 x apple, 1 x banana 1 x green tea - approx 250 cal
16:00 - Ride home -100 cal (longer route)
17:00 - 500ml full cream milk with 2 x tsp of milo 400 cal
19:30 - Dinner - vege stir fry with noodles and tempe - 800 cal
21:00 - green tea. maybe a few bits of chocolate if I am feeling flaked. 100 cal.

Gross intake: 3500 cal (can be as low as 2500)
Measured output: 1150 cal. (can be a high as 1500cal) Sometimes work training session 1-2 times per week, easy another 500 cals there.
Two days a week is skills training which would add another at least 700 calls to the output.
Two rest days a week.
Diet largely unchanged except Saturday is pancake day. Hmmm pancakes.

Training is currently switching from strength endurance to power endurance. Think crossfit but without the retarded randomness and injury inducing crap - circuits involving weights (squat, DL, cleans) and repetitive movements (kettle bells), sprint drills, rowing etc - sport specific (look up interval weight training).

Previously was focusing just on strength training and eating about 1000 cal or more than above. Weight at end of Sept was ~87 kilos. Currently 82 and falling which is actually a pain in the arse, I wasn't supposed to be at this weight until end of Jan. And I sure as hell don't want to be at the low end of my weight class in a comp. Was planning to be 80kg square at end of Feb (supposedly when next comp is on... TBA). So I have to re-assess.

YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:14 pm 
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btompkins0112 :beerchug: you made :lol:
If Im the voice of reason I can't believe this hasn't been locked down :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:51 am 
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Ah this is very interesting to me as I was wondering if anyone else ever did this.

I have been riding and racing for probably 16 years now, I'm 31, and have regularly set out to bonk not for anything to do with weight loss, but just for the sheer struggle to get home. More of a mental thing. For a long time it was horrible, not that it feels good even now, but after many years of this something changed. That awful sensation came, the man with the hammer, but i could keep going! Somehow my legs kept that same gear turning and i could go very nearly the same! Now even after the worst bonk I can still ride along at a decent pace, as long as there's no big climbs, and keep my speed up. It's like this bizarre extra endurance. I feel like I'm going nowhere, I feel dead- until I'm still passing other cyclists easily or check my speed ( I almost never use computers). If I close my eyes I think I've died on the side of the road but when I look down the legs are still churning away. And by now, the next day I'm right as rain.

These days I wouldn't even think of carrying food unless I was going out for over 4 hours, I never have problems. And it takes something really extraordinary for me to bonk. And even when I do, it's no worry! I can still get home no problem.

I've just moved to Colombia so its a bit of a different beast here, with these colossal climbs everywhere and the mighty altitude, so a bad day seems 5x as hard, but still- no worries!

Yeah I know this sounds really stupid, but I swear something eventually changes in you. And you just know you can get out of anything. Go ahead say what you will but it worked for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:51 am 
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I believe you become more efficient in energy expenditure on a bike, both at a physiologically and a physical (on the bike) level.

I get away with considerably less fuel on the bike than I did 12, 24 and 36 months ago.


I'll also just leave this here

http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2012/12/a ... -the-pros/

for some additional reading...

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:47 pm 
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I always wonder why amateurs care what the pros do since they're not pros?

TW what are you training for? If it were track events I'd imagine weight is irrelevant.

And like I said, pursuing cut abs instead of a higher FTP is dumb, but I don't see a reason why people can't gradually get into better body comp and physical shape over time. Slow weight loss has never impaired my FTP nor anyone I know from personal experience. Dumb crash diets do.

I also said that some kind of logical healthy habits work best. When I posted my general diet there is logic behind it based on my own blood tests, blood glucose levels, how I simply feel when I eat certain things, energy expenditure, etc.

I also used to not really eat on the bike- maybe 1 Clif Bar every 3 hours, but I recently stick to the 250-400kcal/hr replenishment rate and its made a pretty big difference in my energy levels across the week. My races aren't longer than 3 hrs, with a few 3.5 hr rr's in there so fat metabolism is a non-issue. IIRC I remember Allen Lim having a quote that unless you race over 4 hours, don't worry about fat. The studies I posted above regarding energy expenditure at certain percentages of vo2 max show that longer, slightly easier rides actually drain more glycogen than even short intense training sessions. I've found that if I am say doing long rides on the weekends and workouts during the week that my 2nd long ride of the weekend and my Thursday weekday rides have improved. Basically, I have more energy across the entire mini block. Its also worth mentioning that when I did an RMR gas exchange test I was a bit more carb dominant, which is something that literature shows can only change a few small percent with training over time (barely at all).

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Well some of the amateurs here *have* been on the pro circuit... but I think that article is rather just pointing out the fact that even at the high levels people are messed up on the body image and the weight vs performance thing.

My apologies, I thought I had mentioned it earlier, currently training for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu comps, gi at the moment, working on no-gi, and if I don't suck too much- MMA... but probably not (too old and slow and I like my brain too much). Hence the necessity on weight divisions, best to be the heaviest in a division rather than the lightest.

Some may like the irony in coaching the S&C aspect for some other BJJ guys I have recommended they research some IF to make weight for a comp (it was preferable to the other retarded crap they were doing).... but it's a completely different sport.

And I really, really agree with the gradual weight loss. 100%. But the way I recommend to drive it is the performance. The cyclist with a 350 watt FTP can "trim" the excess far easier than the cyclist with a 300 FTP (arbitrary number selected there). The truth being that very few who get to the limits of their potential (in give circumstances) rarely have this issue.

Then you have the psychology around food and eating and performance which is a whole other messed up bag. But to touch on this for a second...

So for example. New cyclists I am about to coach, the question of diet is one the early ones. There is the automatic assumption that its breakfast - one piece of toast and a apple and lunch - a lettuce leaf on a rice cracker etc is a common one. The relief when I say "No, eat what you like, just keep it 'healthy'". Yes Timmy, you can (and should) have butter on your toast, yes you can have those nice salmon and rye rolls at the cafeteria. Yes you can eat a bloody steak. Trainee eats more, now happy.

The psychologic benefit of never feeling hungry and seeing performance numbers rise is far greater (in my experience) than any dip on the scales. I also advocate weighing on a very infrequent basis (once per month). Nine times out of 10 if they haven't lost weight its neutral. The benefits in the mind of the trainee of eating well, being measurably fitter and usually the scale don't quite seem as important and like I said, usually they have good news. ( I will also put the caveat that I have only coached those who have some sort of performance goal. I don't deal with those who only want to look good.)

Now a more regimented diet strategy gets implemented when something in the above starts to stall. If power doesn't go up and weight is going up THEN - new strategy. If power is going up and weight rising a bit - new strategy. If power is going down and weight up - major new strategy.

In forming a diet strategy I cannot, and will not dictate a precise plan. Overarching goals, maybe identify specific deficiencies, general guidelines - that's it. The athlete has to work out what is working for them, and what is not. What food they like and can eat and when.

And on supplements - I've read the literature, I know what works and what doesn't. And so often, for the amateur athlete there is very little which will yield any benefit over healthy eating. Cost/benefit ratio for some is important and until they are logging 20hrs a week there is nothing that will really be gained from this. Also there is the relatively minor issue , but still existing issue for those who compete in sanctioned events and may theoretically be tested, of contamination in said supplements. More than one person has been pinged for this in the past. Unless you really need them, why take them? Some do need them, but its few and far in between.

KW, I know you have done a lot of research and come up with something that works for you. Awesome. And I have done the same. But there is no way I would even start to recommend my diet plan to anyone else. Hence I would be loathe that to recommend calories restriction, intermittent fasting etc to anyone as a general guidelines, Especially for endurance athletes. And why I am vocal about these sorts of things.

Hey, I think we are reaching a nexus of agreement!

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:40 pm 
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For disagreeing for a few thousand words, we recommend similar diet strategies to clients except that I tend to provide more micromanaged information if they so desire it. One of my athletes literally would not eat on rides and wouldn't eat after to 'avoid putting too many calories back'. I couldn't figure out for the life of me why he couldn't do any decent work in the 3rd-4th hour of a ride until I asked the question of "What have you eaten the past 3 days?". 1 bowl of breakfast cereal 10 minutes before the ride, stomach ache during the ride, whatever Mom made for dinner 5 hours later. Got light, but ended up losing quite a bit of power. He benefitted a lot from being able to figure out when to eat, but also what kind of portions made general sense.

Funny you mention MMA as an aside because a few of the people I know that heavily follow IF and carb backloading are pro MMA fighters and a few olympic wrestlers. One of them actually mentioned the diet to me years ago and I completely dismissed it, but his results then and now were decent.

So going back to the first post perhaps I was unclear. I think that SOME endurance athletes who do not train in a large amount that have their training fairly dialed in and generally have good eating habits so that they recover well and aren't gaining weight COULD try it in the base season without catastrophe. The problem I actually see with IF is that the first meal to break the fast is typically HUGE and some riders might not realize exactly how many calories they've taken in and could gain weight accidentally.

So what I was trying to say all along is that there is saliency to the points I have mentioned that work better or worse with certain types of activity. A powerlifter's diet isn't the same as a cyclists, but perhaps both can learn from each other in a beneficial manner. If I didn't have a background in strength and conditioning I surely would be fairly protein phobic as most endurance athletes can be and wouldn't be as open to certain dietary habits that have been very beneficial for me.

As for supplements, I take what I do because its cheap and I tend not to do well with carbs. I have about 11 years of competing in various sports, trying different diets, and found that ALA is cheap, safe, has many benefits, and seems to correlate with positive results. The other stuff I take or have taken was just on sale and for random experiments, but not a whole lot really works. When clients ask what to take I usually suggest a multi, fish oil, chromium, ZMA and make practical recommendations for certain types of oils, foods, and other things they could buy repeatedly that would go a long way over time. I also suggest that they visit a doctor a few times a year to get blood tests if they're willing so that they can identify any issues with mineral/vitamin deficiencies, hormonal deficiencies, or any other issues. I had one client that was insanely good shape (NRC pro), but had awful cholesterol. We never traced a single sole cause, but by reducing products with soybeal oil, partially hydrogenated oils, lower unnecessary CHO intake, switching to grass fed butter, and raising protein from grass fed sources the problem reversed itself completely. In my mind if a diet REQUIRES a supplement, its bullshit. Carb backloading is a really good example of that. While Berkhan's page is a bit cheesy looking, what I like about him, Berardi, Aragon, and similar nutritionists is that their recommendations hinge upon quality food, energy expenditure, timing what you eat smartly, and only supplementing vitamins, minerals, and other things if you are deficient in them.

Personally I've obsessed with weight my whole life. At 17 years old I was 140lbs at 6 feet 2 (shoulda started racing then). At age 19 I was 190lb grappler. By age 23 I was a 255lb powerlifter. At age 27 I am now a 165lb cyclist. It can be a really dangerous cycle for many people. After bad dietary habits sidelined me in the past and hurt my performance, developing a series of applicable habits was a hard process and I feel that things that I adopted from other sports have helped tremendously. I hope that the things that I have posted can peak the interest of a few people and help them avoid habits that are not healthy under ANY condition. I don't think IF falls into that category, but a track cyclist that has 9 national championships under his belt has used it with success for about 3 years during the early phases of his conditioning and the off-season.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:54 am 
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KWalker wrote:
I always wonder why amateurs care what the pros do since they're not pros?

You've missed the point then.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Tapeworm wrote:
Then you have the psychology around food and eating and performance which is a whole other messed up bag. But to touch on this for a second...

So glad you put that out there Tape.

People need to look at riders like Fabian Cancellara, riding away from everyone at L'Eroica up the hill. He's said to weight 80kg-ish at 186cm. Not skinny, not fat. Power, not weight.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:52 pm 
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yup, not skinny, not fat but he seems to have a bit more fat then some other riders, looking at his definition. Someone like Peter Sagan isnt "cut" by any means, yet those guys can put out massive ammount of power, climb, sprint and are probably less sensible to illness then leaner riders :S


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
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