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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:32 am 
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I think the insults are unfortunate because you're both sharing good information - simply from different sides of the table.

Coming from a strength training / BB background - skipping meals isn't my forte (and my experience and "knowledge" strongly supports early morning exercise especially for fat loss) but I find all of this interesting and may give (some of) Kwalker's methods a shot. There are a lot of things that didn't work for me before I tried them ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:32 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:09 pm 
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Round 1:


1. Campbell B, et al. International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: protein and exercise. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Sep 26;4:8. [Medline]

No mention of fasting. Supports a “regular” feeding basis.

2. La Bounty PM, et al. International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: meal frequency. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2011 Mar 16;8(1):4. [Epub ahead of print] [Medline] [JISSN]

Quote: “Increasing meal frequency during periods of hypoenergetic dieting may preserve lean body mass in athletic population”.

Regular eating is good for the athlete.

3. Benardot D, et al. Between-meal energy intake effects on body composition, performance, and total caloric consumption in athletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005;37(5):S339. [MSSE]

Can’t find abstract.

4. Deutz RC. et al. Relationship between energy deficits and body composition in elite female gymnasts and runners. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2000 Mar;32(3):659-68. [Medline]

From the abstract: “Thus, dietary restriction resulting in energy intake below estimated energy needs should be avoided, not only because inadequate energy impairs performance, but also because the increased stored body fat affects appearance. It appears clear from these data that consuming sufficient energy is better than not getting enough, and getting energy on time to prevent a energy deficit state during the day is better than getting it late. “

Female gymnasts eh?

5. Iwao S, et al. Effects of meal frequency on body composition during weight control in boxers. Scand J Med Sci Sports. 1996 Oct;6(5):265-72. [Medline]

Quote: “These results suggest that the lower frequency of meal intake leads to a greater myoprotein catabolism even if the same diet is consumed.”

Rather important for a boxer don't you think?

6. Mettler S, et al. Increased protein intake reduces lean body mass loss during weight loss in athletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2010 Feb;42(2):326-37. [Medline]

Quote: “These results indicate that approximately 2.3 g x kg(-1) or approximately 35% protein was significantly superior to approximately 1.0 g x kg(-1) or approximately 15% energy protein for maintenance of lean body mass in young healthy athletes during short-term hypoenergetic weight loss.” Resistance trained athletes.
7. Varady KA. Intermittent versus daily calorie restriction: which diet regimen is more effective for weight loss? Obes Rev. 2011 Mar 17. [Epub ahead of print] [Medline]

Intermittent fasting may be more effective in fatties. No argument there.

8. Stote KS, et al. A controlled trial of reduced meal frequency without caloric restriction in healthy, normal-weight, middle-aged adults. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Apr;85(4):981-8. [Medline]

Quote: “Normal-weight subjects are able to comply with a 1 meal/d diet. When meal frequency is decreased without a reduction in overall calorie intake, modest changes occur in body composition, some cardiovascular disease risk factors, and hematologic variables.”

Not endurance athletes, don’t care.

9. Oyvind H, et al. The effect of meal frequency on body composition during 12 weeks of strength training. 12th Annual congress of the European College of Sport Science, 2007. [ECSS]

Quote: “In this study, three meals per day resulted in larger muscle- and strength gain from strength training when in positive energy balance than six meals per day over a period of twelve weeks. “
Strength training, not endurance, don’t care.


10. Jenkins DJ, et al. Nibbling versus gorging: metabolic advantages of increased meal frequency. N Engl J Med. 1989 Oct 5;321(14):929-34. [Medline]

Quote: “The blood glucose, serum insulin, and C-peptide responses to a standardized breakfast and the results of an intravenous glucose-tolerance test conducted at the end of each diet were similar. We conclude that in addition to the amount and type of food eaten, the frequency of meals may be an important determinant of fasting serum lipid levels, possibly in relation to changes in insulin secretion.”

Nibbling “better”. Not endurance athletes, don’t care.

11. Carlson O, et al. Impact of reduced meal frequency without caloric restriction on glucose regulation in healthy, normal-weight middle-aged men and women. Metabolism. 2007 Dec;56(12):1729-34. [Medline]

Quote: “Subjects consuming a single large daily meal exhibit elevated fasting glucose levels and impaired morning glucose tolerance associated with a delayed insulin response during a 2-month diet period compared with those consuming 3 meals per day.”
Not endurance athletes, don’t care.

12. Holmstrup ME, et al. Effect of meal frequency on glucose and insulin excursions over the course of a day. Eur e-J Clin Nutr Metab. 2010 Dec;5(6):277-80. [e-SPEN]

Quote: “In non-obese individuals, glucose levels remained elevated throughout the day with frequent CHO meals compared to 3CHO meals, without any differences in the insulin levels. Increasing the protein content of frequent meals attenuated both the glucose and insulin response. These findings of elevated glucose levels throughout the day warrant further research, particularly in overweight and obese individuals with and without type 2 diabetes.”

Not athletes, don’t care.

13. Harvie MN, et al. The effects of intermittent or continuous energy restriction on weight loss and metabolic disease risk markers: a randomized trial in young overweight women. Int J Obes (Lond). 2010 Oct 5. [Epub ahead of print] [Medline]

Quote: “IER is as effective as CER in regards to weight loss, insulin sensitivity and other health biomarkers and may be offered as an alternative equivalent to CER for weight loss and reducing disease risk.”
Yay, for the fatties. Not athletes, don’t care.

14. Garrow JS, et al. The effect of meal frequency and protein concentration on the composition of the weight lost by obese subjects. Br J Nutr. 1981 Jan;45(1):5-15. [Medline]

Quote: “in our own series the manipulation of meal frequency alone did not give
a significant effect on weight loss”
Yay for the fatties again.


15. Wilson GJ, et al. Equal distributions of dietary protein throughout the day maximizes rat skeletal muscle mass. The FASEB Journal, 2010. 24(740.17). [FASEB J]

Quotes: “Results showed that the equally distributed whey protein group had significantly greater postprandial MPS after the breakfast meal and larger muscle mass than the unequally distributed treatment.”

Rats that have regular equal amounts of protein are buff. Awesome.

16. Paddon-Jones D, et al. Exogenous amino acids stimulate human muscle anabolism without interfering with the response to mixed meal ingestion. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Apr;288(4):E761-7 [Medline]

Quote: “In conclusion, ingestion of a CAA supplement produces a greater anabolic effect than ingestion of a nutritionally mixed meal, despite similar EAA content. Furthermore, ingestion of the CAA supplement does not result in a subsequent compensatory nadir in net phenylalanine balance and does not effect the normal anabolic response to ingestion of a nutritionally mixed meal.”

Yay, a supplement works.

17. Soeters MR, et al. Intermittent fasting does not affect whole-body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Nov;90(5):1244-51. [Medline]

Quote: “IF does not affect whole-body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism in healthy lean men despite changes in muscle phosphorylation of GSK and mTOR. The decrease in resting energy expenditure after IF indicates the possibility of an increase in weight during IF when caloric intake is not adjusted.”
Yay, IF “works”.

18. Arnal MA, et al. Protein feeding pattern does not affect protein retention in young women. J Nutr. 2000 Jul;130(7):1700-4. [Medline]

Quote: “No significant effects of the protein feeding pattern were detected on either whole-body protein turnover [5.5 ± 0.2 vs. 6.1 ± 0.3 g protein/(kg fat-free mass · d) for spread and pulse pattern, respectively] or whole-body protein synthesis and protein breakdown. Thus, in young women, these protein feeding patterns did not have significantly different effects on protein retention.”
Lucky young women.

19. Arnal MA, et al. Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Jun;69(6):1202-8. [Medline]

Quote: “A protein pulse-feeding pattern was more efficient than was a protein spread-feeding pattern in improving, after 14 d, whole-body protein retention in elderly women.”
Go the elderly, not athletes….

20. Smeets AJ, Westerterp-Plantenga MS. Acute effects on metabolism and appetite profile of one meal difference in the lower range of meal frequency. Br J Nutr, 2008. 99(6): p. 1316-21. [Medline]

Quote: “In healthy, normal-weight women, decreasing the inter-meal interval sustains satiety, particularly during the day, and sustains fat oxidation, particularly during the night.”
Yay.

21. Cameron JD, et al. Increased meal frequency does not promote greater weight loss in subjects who were prescribed an 8-week equi-energetic energy-restricted diet. Br J Nutr. 2010 Apr;103(8):1098-101. [Medline]

Quote:” We conclude that increasing MF does not promote greater body weight loss under the conditions described in the present study.”
3 meals down from 3 plus snacks…


22. Leidy HJ, et al. The influence of higher protein intake and greater eating frequency on appetite control in overweight and obese men. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2010 Mar 25. [Epub ahead of print] [Medline]

Quote:” These findings suggest that overweight and obese adults who typically exhibit a higher risk for type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome, may experience improved glycemic control, potentially reducing the risk for diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and additional weight gain when smaller, more frequent meals are consumed.”

Lucky fatties.



So far not very conclusive for... anything really. Did you just post a bunch of random studies KWalker, or did you actually read them?

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:17 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
...I feel really sorry for the people that actually pay you for advice ...


No one pays. My work is pro bono publico.

See if you can figure out why that is.

As I said, so knowledgable....

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:39 pm 
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Blimey ...I just had a cup of tea and a sausage.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Because its so terrible that it couldn't command a fee?

I read all of the studies, but figuring you wouldn't bother to read the articles they came from nor debate the people that wrote them (because that would require you to actually have something to back your opinions up or actually state your background and expertise in public). In the context of how they were cited, they all make sense for: not worrying about meal frequency, delaying initial feeding, not feeding as much in the morning when cortisol is high, IF working as a protocol for strength athletes, etc.

What I recommended above wasn't IF. In fact, I said it would be dumb to try with cycling training, especially in the AM. What I suggested was eating CHO when it mattered- to saturate blood glucose before a workout to spare glycogen, during a workout to spare glycogen, and after to replenish it and keeping it lower at other times unless volume was high. Consider the following scenario (with all numbers based on the studies listed after it):
2 hr workout with 1 hr of work at 90% of vo2 max=~1400kcal expended for an average 160lb athlete
Assuming glycogen is topped up to a full 2050kcal and the athlete burned roughly ~72% of their energy from glycogen during that hour of higher intensity work, they burn 504kcal from glycogen during that hour and assuming the rest of the ride is at a normal L2 pace when rates are much lower this lowers to slightly above 50% for another 350kcal for around 854kcal total from glycogen. This is also assuming they didn't have saturated blood glucose, which is unrealistic but complicated to plug into an example. Even plasma glucose and FFA accounts for close the same amount of energy expenditure at this high of a percentage of vo2 max so if they feed after hour 1 at the normal rate of 300-400kcal/hr they're left with 454kcal of glycogen used at most, but is most likely lower since they spent part of that hour resting and part doing intervals. 454kcal is only 113.5g of CHO

Extending duration still doesn't use more CHO as percentage of expenditure because as the first link states, there is a progressive decrease in reliance on intramuscular triglycerides or glycogen over time. Stretch that ride out to 3 hours and with the decrease in rates and increase in a reliance on plasma glucose from exogenous feeding and you get a whopping total of ~600kcal of glycogen used or 150g of CHO needed to compensate for that PWO. With the rate of 1.2g/kg of body mass being the ideal/maximal replenishment amount that's 87g immediately PWO so they have either 40g left to consume for a 2 hr ride or 70g for the 3 hour ride.

Links for this:
http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/ ... 51-4991(11)00006-0/fulltext
http://www.aleixo.com/biblioteca/obesid ... bolism.pdf
http://www.edb.utexas.edu/ssn/SN%20PDF/ ... 20Diet.PDF
http://www.jssm.org/vol3/n3/3/v3n3-3pdf.pdf
http://jap.physiology.org/content/88/5/1631.full

So tell me then how my strategy fails for the normal rider given these rough approximations (based on studies)? For your every day guy doing 2x20's and maybe 2hrs a day bar the long weekend ride, a high CHO diet is not necessary for the base period and most of the build period save for when they introduce heavily CHO dependent/depleting L5 and above work. Then I wouldn't restrict at all, but for much of the year significant CHO intake is not necessary. So how would they get their calories? Increase proteins and healthy fats. They don't need the protein for extra recovery, but there are a lot of advantages to over eating protein vs overeating CHO or fat namely that it is extremely difficult to break down and store as lipids aka it can't easily be shuttled into fat unless the entire diet is in a caloric surplus. So my advice for timing CHO, for the normal person, makes sense in that they take in what they need when they need it and minimize chance for fat accrual by ingesting tons of insulinogenic foods when they're sitting at their desk doing their day job.

http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/ ... 51-4991(11)00006-0/fulltext
http://www.aleixo.com/biblioteca/obesid ... bolism.pdf
http://www.edb.utexas.edu/ssn/SN%20PDF/ ... 20Diet.PDF

I went through your responses. Endurance athlete is too lose of a term to quantify and pick out as a flaw with every study. Simply put, most metabolic processes do not greatly change except during and shortly after workout. Moreover, a person that runs 6 hours a week and does a half marathon is an endurance athlete, but so is a Cat 3 road racer that rides 15 hours a week. There is nothing that special about an endurance athlete so long as they consume adequate calories to compensate for the energy they expend and consume the types of macronutrients that their events require. Simple as that. They don't have higher resting glycogen resynthesis rates, they don't have lower basal cortisol upon waking, they don't have different amounts of leptin or ghrelin, and they don't have a drastically different amount of insulin sensitivity (except around workout or if they were doing an extremely high volume such as a pro would do, in which case I wouldn't bother with any of that). If you could find information that specified how someone changes biologically from every other type of athlete out there I would be curious to hear it.

As I've said all along, its not a strategy that could work with endurance athletes the way that Berkhan, Berardi, Norton, et. al use it for strength athletes and short course track athletes because of KJ turnover, however, its still a dieting strategy that has its merits.

You've yet to answer how it could impair recovery on an off day if total Kcal consumed is the same. Biologically speaking it can't impair so long as all calories are consumed before the krebs cycle ends. What I suggested for those of us with normal day jobs that do not have any issues getting calories in is that on an off day it could not hurt to try and for me, it works really well. The other recommendations I posted of centering carbs around workouts mathematically work as well. The person is never left in a state of not being able to recover due to an extreme caloric deficit. All they would do is eat their food when they have the highest ability to utilize certain macronutrients in a positive manner.

Gl

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:57 pm 
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I''ll get to a summary when I have gone through all the studies.

Still haven't posted your credentials yet champ...

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:41 pm 
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I haven't read the majority of this thread but I will add: Life is too short to Bonk on purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:46 pm 
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So let's get a summary of where we are at:-
KWalker: IF doesn't really work for endurance athletes waffle waffle waffle.
HUMP DIESEL: I might use IF in rest days.
Tapeworm: IF on rest days not a good idea.
KWalker: Waffle [large amounts of irrelevant studies], Tapeworm is wrong, coaches imaginary riders, no qualifications, waffle, waffle.
KWalker (in other thread): IF doesn't really work in endurance athletes....

That about right so far?

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:14 pm 
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Tapeworm wrote:
I''ll get to a summary when I have gone through all the studies.

Still haven't posted your credentials yet champ...

I have:

-I coach 6 riders from the NRC to masters 35+ level. Its for fun. For 3 years I worked alongside a few D1 pro strength and conditioning coaches and got my intro to physiology and literature that way. I've never charged for work or claimed to be a coach. I have ALWAYS stated that I do not hold a degree in the subject and get my information from journals, studies, seminars, webinars, or other experts.

You forgot this part:
TW-I'm a complete arse who can never, ever post something that actually refutes what is said. I have failed to actually provide information for why it is a bad idea on rest days and failed to dismantle any arguments about the diet advice KW posted. I have never listed my clients, credentials, or any helpful knowledge aside from 5 sentence responses.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:56 pm 
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You forgot I'm arrogant and condescending.

Otherwise bang on.

Like I said, I''ll reply in full when I have gone through all those relevant studies.

Edit: On the subject of clients I will never post any details about any of them unless I have their express permission to do so. Client/coach confidentiality, that sort of thing. If you ever work in a professional field you may understand the reasons for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:35 am 
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I do as I'm a government contractor and why I didn't post the names or records of anyone I've worked with. You could still post your name, background, training, credentials, etc.

Also you have not posted 1 single thing or compelling argument to substantiate your point of view but rather haphazardly picked apart supporting arguments for a protocol that has a hell of a lot more evidence behind it than what you've posted for yourself so far. As I said I'm simply reposting the supporting evidence for those arguments as well as anecdotal evidence from myself and a limited client base.

You still need to:
1. Provide an argument for why an IF protocol on a rest day will impair recovery if total kcal taken in is equal i.e. the same athlete with the same load eats the same meals except in an 8 hour period instead of 16.

2. Explain why the protocol I mentioned above, which is based on fairly accurate estimates of energy expended during a NORMAL (the person reading this board for info) training ride. I provided examples of what would roughly equal a 2 hr ride with 1 hr of decent intensity at threshold or so, and a similar 3hr ride along with the total kcal of glycogen used. If you can provide a convincing argument for why the athlete in that example would go wrong with what I recommended (which more than adequately covers the amount of glycogen they will expend and has the same CHO per day as most people take in, just centered around exercise) it would be fascinating. Of the very limited number of World Tour pros I know, that's essentially how they eat and how their camps/races diets are planned by team nutritionists. So if you have a better protocol then both myself and a few pro teams are waiting to hear it.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:28 am 
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This thread is funny. Anybody can find articles. If ya'll are such experts why don't you link something you've published yourself?


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:14 am 
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Round 2:

Benedict, C., Hallschmid, M., Scheibner, J., Niemeyer, D., Schultes, B., Merl, V., Fehm, H. L., et al. (2005). Gut protein uptake and mechanisms of meal-induced cortisol release. The Journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism, 90(3), 1692–1696. doi:10.1210/jc.2004-1792

“In summary, our experiments indicate that the cortisol response to protein-containing meals originates from an amino acid-dependent activation of the gastrointestinal mucosa. How this signal is reported to the HPA system to stimulate cortisol release is not yet clear. Afferent neurons of the vagus nerve, which is known to enable gut-brain communication, may serve this function. The vagus nerve could also be the target of neuropharmacological agents like cholinergic and adrenergic agonists that have been shown to reinforce the meal-related increase in cortisol release (3, 31). Also, vagal stimulation effectively stimulates HPA secretory activity (32). Alternatively, the intake of proteins and the accumulation of amino acids in the gut might stimulate the release of enteric hormones like cholecystokinin and gastrin-releasing peptide that, in turn, stimulate HPA secretory activity (33, 34).”

Isn’t endocrinology just the shiz?

Campfield, L. A., & Smith, F. J. (2003). Blood glucose dynamics and control of meal initiation: a pattern detection and recognition theory. Physiological Reviews, 83(1), 25–58. doi:10.1152/physrev.00019.2002

Abstract outlining things that need to be studied in relation to this topic. No conclusions.

Clow, A., et al., The cortisol awakening response: More than a measure of HPA axis function. Neurosci. Biobehav. Rev. (2010), doi:10.1016/j.neubiorev.2009.12.011

Cortisol levels in relation to pre/post waking periods. Does not discuss effect on different dietary approaches.

Dallman MF, Akana SF, Strack AM, Hanson ES, Sebastian RJ. The neural network that regulates energy balance is responsive to gluco- corticoids and insulin and also regulates HPA axis responsivity at a site proximal to CRF neurons. Stress: Basic Mechanisms Clin Implicat 1995; 771: 730±742.

Discussing relationship between insulin and corticosteroids and how changes in levels dictate how energy is being stored either muscle store or abdominal fat stores. Abdominal storage most likely linked to increased activity in the HPA axis. All in rats – more study required to determine effects in humans.

Fries, E., Dettenborn, L., Kirschbaum, C., 2009. The cortisol awakening response (CAR): facts and future directions. Int. J. Psychophysiol. 72, 67–73.

More in relation to the CAR and the HPA axis. All very promising research but hardly grounds for any conclusive ultilisation regarding diet at this stage.

Gibson, E. L., Checkley, S., Papadopoulos, A., Poon, L., Daley, S., & Wardle, J. (1999). Increased salivary cortisol reliably induced by a protein-rich midday meal. Psychosomatic Medicine, 61(2), 214–224.

Cortisol levels increase after meal with increased amount of protein. Which is nice.

MAYER, J. (1953). Glucostatic mechanism of regulation of food intake. The New England journal of medicine, 249(1), 13–16. doi:10.1056/NEJM195307022490104

Couldn’t find abstract. Fricken old, that’s why.

Newport, D.J. and Nemeroff, C.B. (2002) Stress. In: (Ed. in chief), Encyclopedia of the Human Brain, Vol. 4. Elsevier, pp. 449-462.

Not sure what this is, couldn’t find it.

Shin, I.-Y., Ahn, R.-S., Chun, S.-I., Lee, Y.-J., Kim, M.-S., Lee, C.-K., & Sung, S. (2011). Cortisol Awakening Response and Nighttime Salivary Cortisol Levels in Healthy Working Korean Subjects. Yonsei Medical Journal, 52(3), 435. doi:10.3349/ymj.2011.52.3.435

Gathered data for CAR for the benefit of further HPA research.

Slag, M. F., Ahmad, M., Gannon, M. C., & Nuttall, F. Q. (1981). Meal stimulation of cortisol secretion: a protein induced effect. Metabolism, 30(11), 1104–1108.

Quote; “We conclude that dietary protein plays an important role in meal stimulated cortisol release.”

High protein diet increases cortisol. Awesome.

Therrien, F., Drapeau, V., Lupien, S. J., Beaulieu, S., Doré, J., Tremblay, A., & Richard, D. (2008). Awakening cortisol response in relation to psychosocial profiles and eating behaviors. Physiology & Behavior, 93(1-2), 282–288. doi:10.1016/j.physbeh.2007.08.019

Quote: “This study highlights a gender-dependent relationship between ACR, hence the activity of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis, and eating behaviors and psychological profiles.”

Also for the women: “The latter was also negatively associated with the satiety quotient for fullness in response to the standardized breakfast (r=-0.48, p=0.010)”.


Vila, G., Krebs, M., Riedl, M., Baumgartner-Parzer, S. M., Clodi, M., Maier, C., Pacini, G., et al. (2010). Acute effects of hydrocortisone on the metabolic response to a glucose load: increase in the first-phase insulin secretion. European journal of endocrinology / European Federation of Endocrine Societies, 163(2), 225–231. doi:10.1530/EJE-10-0282

Quote: “One i.v. bolus of hydrocortisone induces rapid effects on carbohydrate metabolism increasing the first-phase beta-cell function. The modulation of P(eptide) YY plasma levels suggests the possible non-genomic effects of glucocorticoids on appetite-regulatory hormones.”


Great research there so far.

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"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:27 am 
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Round 3:

Accompanying studies supporting the intermittent fasting protocol:
Halberg N, Henriksen M, Soderhamn N. Effect of intermittent fasting and refeeding on insulin action in healthy men. J Appl Physiol 2005; 99: 2128–2136.

Great if you have insulin resistance.

Michalsen A, Riegert M, Ludtke R. Mediterranean diet or extended fasting’s influence on changing the intestinal microflora, immunoglobulin A secretion and clinical outcome in patients with rheumatoid arthritis and fibromyalgia: an observational study. BMC Complement Altern Med 2005; 5: 22.

Fasting may help rheumatoid arthritis and fibromyalgia… which is nice.

Heilbronn LK, Smith SR, Martin CK, Anton SD, Ravussin E. Alternate-day fasting in nonobese subjects: effects on body weight, body composition, and energy metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr 2005; 81: 69–73.

Small loss of weight. Subjects were hungry. Glucose and ghrelin didn’t change. Also not athletes.

Johnson JB, Summer W, Cutler RG. Alternate day calorie restriction improves clinical findings and reduces markers of oxidative stress and inflammation in overweight adults with moderate asthma. Free Radic Biol Med 2007; 42: 665–674.

Calories restriction may help fatties with asthma. Awesome.

Varady KA, Bhutani S, Church EC, Klempel MC. Short-term modified alternate-day fasting: a novel dietary strategy for weight loss and cardioprotection in obese adults. Am J Clin Nutr 2009; 90: 1138–1143.

And again, may work well with fatties.

Varady KA, Bhutani S, Klempel MC, Kroeger C. Effect of alternate day fasting combined with exercise on body composition parameters in obese adults. Unpublished data.

Another for the fatties.

Varady KA, Allister CA, Hellerstein MK. Effect of alternate day fasting on lipid metabolism in obese humans. Unpublished data.

And again….

How is this helping your point? Never mind... I'll get to that shortly.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:02 am 
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Posts: 2322
Summary:

So what have we got so far? The evidence posted for any sort of food delay is... really underwhelming.

There is a lot of research going on in relation to the finer points endocrinology/neuroendocrinology in relation to the way we eat. There is plenty of evidence that people with chronic problems can sometimes alleviate or diminish these issues through diet control. An extreme example is the use of ketogenesis in controlling epilepsy of children. And that is pretty extreme.


Some better examples of studies which may actually yield some, at least not contrary findings, to your proposed methods are those which pertain to athletes who fast during Ramadan (large sample sizes available). The below studies not previously listed address the issue more closely. Some support, some show neutral benefits, others not so good.

Effects of Ramadan intermittent fasting on middle-distance running performance in well-trained runners.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21857506" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No major benefits or hinderances.

Fasting and sport: an introduction.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20460260" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Quote: "Prolonged periods of training in the fasted state may not allow optimum adaptation of muscles and other tissues. Further research on a wide range of athletes with special nutrition needs is urgently required."

Effect of Ramadan intermittent fasting on aerobic and anaerobic performance and perception of fatigue in male elite judo athletes.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19910805" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No major effects, lost a little weight.

Intermittent fasting does not affect whole-body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776143" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Quote: "The decrease in resting energy expenditure after IF indicates the possibility of an increase in weight during IF when caloric intake is not adjusted."
Not so good...

Ramadan fasting and the GH/IGF-1 axis of trained men during submaximal exercise.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18617733" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Quote: "Ramadan fasting induces positive changes in body composition without disturbing glucose regulation or activity of the GH/IGF-1 system."
Lost body fat and mass - no other changes, hormones all good.

Lipid profiles of judo athletes during Ramadan.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17879887" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Quote: "In conclusion, the present results show that the combination of the change in diet pattern during Ramadan, along with intense exercise training, induced a significant decrease in body mass associated with a reduction in body fat and changes in some of the serum lipids and lipoproteins. Nevertheless, all the measured serum parameters remained within normal levels for young and active individuals. The volunteers, in this study, were able to maintain a constant training load during RIF."

Lost body fat and over mass, training load maintained. All good.


The amount of research getting close to any sort vague benefits to endurance athletes for food scheduling simply isn't there. Yet. To draw conclusions for the eating the patterns of athletes from the long list of studies is highly ludicrous endeavour. And yet people are. That leangains site is hilarious, real science there. Now, I may be proved 100% wrong on my stance but it sure as hell isn't from a single thing posted so far. In 10 years time with more comprehensive research? Hell yeah, wouldn't be the first time.

I am skeptical in the sense that I have seen all these or similar "wondrous" touted before when the Atkins diet was all the rage. The placebo effect is very awesome, not to mention self-delusion. "I am on a new diet, let me tell you how awesome it is." Additionally the more complex the diet the better people think it works. And now we have the paleo diet, raw diet, fruit only diet blah blah blah.

We have also seen the science switch from "thirst response is unreliable - drink to schedule" [thanks Gatorade] to "we evolved with a good thirst response - drink to thirst." Until there is mound of supporting conclusive evidence that we have to carefully schedule our meals eating to hunger will be my chosen path. What we eat however...

I would not be able to link not a single study which stipulates any one person should eat X diet simply because an individual's needs and demands vary greatly. However there are some generalisations which I think most agree on. "Natural" food is good, vegetables, fruit, meats, fish, nuts, seeds, legumes etc are good. Protein highly important for the athlete, saturated fat too. Again, amounts vary from person to person.

So this whole exercise has demonstrated that:-
1) you have lousy research skills
2) there is no quantifiable benefit to delaying or rescheduling meals (plenty of anecdotes)
3) doing so is potentially impractical (for me it would be 1500 cal in one sitting, hell no) with potential to feeling hungry - for no good reason.
4) amateur athletes apparently need whey hydrosolate/casein hydrosolate, R-ALA/nutrient partitioning....

So why do any sort of IF or scheduling on rest days?
KWalker wrote:
Pretty solid and scientifically substantiated concept.

Rock solid science. For all to see.

Maybe next time be more discerning with your research instead of posting a long list of pretty, but irrelevant, crap.

So much knowledge... yet you still struggle with your own training.

Ah, but I refuse to post my credentials, thus rendering the above obsolete. C'est la vie.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:02 am 


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