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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:49 pm 
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Yah, that's kind of how I've changed. I got really into sports nutrition in the off-season and talked to Berkhan, Berardi, and a few others about making IF work with endurance sports and they all basically said that it can't, except for on off days, which I now do.

The basic protocol they seemed to agree on was this:
For PM rides (after the workday):
-Hold off breakfast until 2 hrs after waking or more.
-No carbs with breakfast except from veggies.
-High in protein, high in fats, high in veggies. I typically do 3 omega 3 eggs, 1 turkey sausage and lots of spinach or kale with some free range butter (high in omega 3 and 6's).
-Lunch you can have some carbs, but try to have them high in residual proteins and fibers (beans, legumes, etc). I stick with Berardi's rec of a portion the size of a fist. High in protein, high in fats, high in veggies.
- 2-3 hrs pre ride I take some R-ALA/nutrient partitioning supp and eat around 80g (two fist sized portion) or starchy vegetables, rice, or both with a small amount of protein from meat or yogurt. If its 2 hrs before the ride that's it, if its 3ish I hit up about 20-30g from a bar 1 hr before.
-During the ride I try to replace 300-400 kcal/hr. My 3x20 yesterday was 2:15 and somewhere around 1500kj, so I still get a deficit.
-After aim for starchy, fast digesting carbs and proteins. I hit a shake with whey hydrosolate/casein hydrosolate with sugar free rice cereal. I take some more R-ALA and have a nice big dinner about an hour later with some potatoes, sweet potatoes, rice, etc and occasionally some gluten free pasta with some meat and lots of veggies.

For AM rides:
-If you have a few hours before the ride (a weekend), eat a decently rounded breakfast depending on ride duration. If its long and hard aim for the same amount of carbs I mentioned above about 2 hrs before the ride. If riding within an hour, hit up a bar upon waking or start fueling sooner in the ride (around 45min).
-Fuel the same during the ride and the same afterwards. After your big post ride meal stick to protein/veggie/meals like above.
-If you have a big ride the next day or next morning, have a hearty dinner similar to your post ride meal. Studies show that people who ate 80% of their carbs at night compared to spread throughout the day lost more bodyfat, had better good cholesterol, higher testosterone, lost more bodyweight, reported better satiety, and had better mood compared to those that spread it throughout the day. Also, you still maintain some insulin sensitivity from the workout and have your carbs from when cortisol is the lowest.

It takes some tweaking, but I started my base/threshold training Nov. 1st and weighed 175. As of yesterday I'm 168 and my riding, mood, bloodwork, etc. are great.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:32 pm 
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That seems similar to what I have been thinking, but I don't eat the meat or the eggs, so I could figure something out.

It would make more sense to do the IF on off days than on riding days.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:32 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Fasting on recovery days is a path to major fail if you are doing any vague amount of decent training.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:35 pm 
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No its not, since its not a complete fast. Same number of calories in the same general window, but instead of eating for 16 waking hours, you only eat for 8. Pretty solid and scientifically substantiated concept. Unless you're heavily glycogen depleted uptake is rather limited on off-days anyways so its best to take advantage of optimal timing of cortisol, GH patterns, etc. For most people this would mean waiting to eat your first meal until noon, which is hardly a recipe for disaster. You should take a look at some of the IF protocols, there is a hell of a lot of research behind them and general nutrient timing based on cortisol patterns.

For me a rest day fast means I skip breakfast, but lunch is bigger. The idea is not to completely fast, but to avoid eating when cortisol and fat utilization are at their highest. Total calories are still the same....

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:04 pm 
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please link those studies - especially those that pertain to endurance athletes.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:37 pm 
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actually scratch that, I really don't care. if you all think intermittent fasting and dropping supplements and trying to coordinate your cortisol levels then knock yourselves out.

For some reason my riders have trouble keeping weight on, not the other way round.

Enjoy that fasting.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:07 am 
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Oh yah you and your awesome riders that totally exist in real life.

I've pasted a list of studies to the end of this response.

Here's an article from a domestic pro that eats the exact same way I specified: http://www.embrocationmagazine.com/online/what-i-eat

R-ALA isn't really a supplement. The fact that you think it is proves how little you really know about nutrition. For athletes that eat a high CHO diet aka endurance athletes R-ALA can have pretty powerful nutrient partitioning and insulin mediation effects. Its pretty commonly supplemented fatty acid, like fish oil or CLA and can also aid in the reduction of inflammation. But yah, steady diet of popping pills all day I guess :roll:

Leangains.com or Berardi's site have more than enough info, studies, etc. I can post plenty of links, but you wouldn't read them because they're not from a Hunter Allan book and weren't innovative 5 years ago. Simply googling the term 'intermittent fasting'. Here's a link to a simple e-book that has tons of info and its from someone that's a nutritionist to a lot of olympians and pro athletes (and was a huge skeptic of any sort of fasting) http://www.precisionnutrition.com/intermittent-fasting

If I were a pro or riding more than I can with a day job I'd have that problem and wouldn't care. Fact of the matter is 2.5 hrs is the max I can get on weekdays and its really not that significant since the rest of my day is spent sitting at a desk. You don't need carbs to sit at a desk. The ability to convert glucose to glycogen decreases by over 75% at rest, which is essentially all of your day except the 2-3hrs post exercise (provided it even utilized glycogen to a significant extent). So if you think avoiding carbs for effectively 4 hours of the day (assuming the normal person eats dinner around 8:30 at night, wakes up at a normal time and just simply eats a larger lunch). If you can actually site one single piece of evidence that suggests that for your average person from a job this would impede recovery I would LOVE to see it as would almost all of the sports nutrition community.

Benedict, C., Hallschmid, M., Scheibner, J., Niemeyer, D., Schultes, B., Merl, V., Fehm, H. L., et al. (2005). Gut protein uptake and mechanisms of meal-induced cortisol release. The Journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism, 90(3), 1692–1696. doi:10.1210/jc.2004-1792

Campfield, L. A., & Smith, F. J. (2003). Blood glucose dynamics and control of meal initiation: a pattern detection and recognition theory. Physiological Reviews, 83(1), 25–58. doi:10.1152/physrev.00019.2002

Clow, A., et al., The cortisol awakening response: More than a measure of HPA axis function. Neurosci. Biobehav. Rev. (2010), doi:10.1016/j.neubiorev.2009.12.011

Dallman MF, Akana SF, Strack AM, Hanson ES, Sebastian RJ. The neural network that regulates energy balance is responsive to gluco- corticoids and insulin and also regulates HPA axis responsivity at a site proximal to CRF neurons. Stress: Basic Mechanisms Clin Implicat 1995; 771: 730±742.

Fries, E., Dettenborn, L., Kirschbaum, C., 2009. The cortisol awakening response (CAR): facts and future directions. Int. J. Psychophysiol. 72, 67–73.

Gibson, E. L., Checkley, S., Papadopoulos, A., Poon, L., Daley, S., & Wardle, J. (1999). Increased salivary cortisol reliably induced by a protein-rich midday meal. Psychosomatic Medicine, 61(2), 214–224.

MAYER, J. (1953). Glucostatic mechanism of regulation of food intake. The New England journal of medicine, 249(1), 13–16. doi:10.1056/NEJM195307022490104

Newport, D.J. and Nemeroff, C.B. (2002) Stress. In: (Ed. in chief), Encyclopedia of the Human Brain, Vol. 4. Elsevier, pp. 449-462.

Shin, I.-Y., Ahn, R.-S., Chun, S.-I., Lee, Y.-J., Kim, M.-S., Lee, C.-K., & Sung, S. (2011). Cortisol Awakening Response and Nighttime Salivary Cortisol Levels in Healthy Working Korean Subjects. Yonsei Medical Journal, 52(3), 435. doi:10.3349/ymj.2011.52.3.435

Slag, M. F., Ahmad, M., Gannon, M. C., & Nuttall, F. Q. (1981). Meal stimulation of cortisol secretion: a protein induced effect. Metabolism, 30(11), 1104–1108.

Therrien, F., Drapeau, V., Lupien, S. J., Beaulieu, S., Doré, J., Tremblay, A., & Richard, D. (2008). Awakening cortisol response in relation to psychosocial profiles and eating behaviors. Physiology & Behavior, 93(1-2), 282–288. doi:10.1016/j.physbeh.2007.08.019

Vila, G., Krebs, M., Riedl, M., Baumgartner-Parzer, S. M., Clodi, M., Maier, C., Pacini, G., et al. (2010). Acute effects of hydrocortisone on the metabolic response to a glucose load: increase in the first-phase insulin secretion. European journal of endocrinology / European Federation of Endocrine Societies, 163(2), 225–231. doi:10.1530/EJE-10-0282

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:08 am 
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Posts: 3776
Location: Bay Area
Here's more on meal frequency:

Campbell B, et al. International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: protein and exercise. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2007 Sep 26;4:8. [Medline]
2. La Bounty PM, et al. International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: meal frequency. J Int Soc Sports Nutr. 2011 Mar 16;8(1):4. [Epub ahead of print] [Medline] [JISSN]
3. Benardot D, et al. Between-meal energy intake effects on body composition, performance, and total caloric consumption in athletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005;37(5):S339. [MSSE]
4. Deutz RC. et al. Relationship between energy deficits and body composition in elite female gymnasts and runners. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2000 Mar;32(3):659-68. [Medline]
5. Iwao S, et al. Effects of meal frequency on body composition during weight control in boxers. Scand J Med Sci Sports. 1996 Oct;6(5):265-72. [Medline]
6. Mettler S, et al. Increased protein intake reduces lean body mass loss during weight loss in athletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2010 Feb;42(2):326-37. [Medline]
7. Varady KA. Intermittent versus daily calorie restriction: which diet regimen is more effective for weight loss? Obes Rev. 2011 Mar 17. [Epub ahead of print] [Medline]
8. Stote KS, et al. A controlled trial of reduced meal frequency without caloric restriction in healthy, normal-weight, middle-aged adults. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Apr;85(4):981-8. [Medline]
9. Oyvind H, et al. The effect of meal frequency on body composition during 12 weeks of strength training. 12th Annual congress of the European College of Sport Science, 2007. [ECSS]
10. Jenkins DJ, et al. Nibbling versus gorging: metabolic advantages of increased meal frequency. N Engl J Med. 1989 Oct 5;321(14):929-34. [Medline]
11. Carlson O, et al. Impact of reduced meal frequency without caloric restriction on glucose regulation in healthy, normal-weight middle-aged men and women. Metabolism. 2007 Dec;56(12):1729-34. [Medline]
12. Holmstrup ME, et al. Effect of meal frequency on glucose and insulin excursions over the course of a day. Eur e-J Clin Nutr Metab. 2010 Dec;5(6):277-80. [e-SPEN]
13. Harvie MN, et al. The effects of intermittent or continuous energy restriction on weight loss and metabolic disease risk markers: a randomized trial in young overweight women. Int J Obes (Lond). 2010 Oct 5. [Epub ahead of print] [Medline]
14. Garrow JS, et al. The effect of meal frequency and protein concentration on the composition of the weight lost by obese subjects. Br J Nutr. 1981 Jan;45(1):5-15. [Medline]
15. Wilson GJ, et al. Equal distributions of dietary protein throughout the day maximizes rat skeletal muscle mass. The FASEB Journal, 2010. 24(740.17). [FASEB J]
16. Paddon-Jones D, et al. Exogenous amino acids stimulate human muscle anabolism without interfering with the response to mixed meal ingestion. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Apr;288(4):E761-7 [Medline]
17. Soeters MR, et al. Intermittent fasting does not affect whole-body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Nov;90(5):1244-51. [Medline]
18. Arnal MA, et al. Protein feeding pattern does not affect protein retention in young women. J Nutr. 2000 Jul;130(7):1700-4. [Medline]
19. Arnal MA, et al. Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Jun;69(6):1202-8. [Medline]
20. Smeets AJ, Westerterp-Plantenga MS. Acute effects on metabolism and appetite profile of one meal difference in the lower range of meal frequency. Br J Nutr, 2008. 99(6): p. 1316-21. [Medline]
21. Cameron JD, et al. Increased meal frequency does not promote greater weight loss in subjects who were prescribed an 8-week equi-energetic energy-restricted diet. Br J Nutr. 2010 Apr;103(8):1098-101. [Medline]
22. Leidy HJ, et al. The influence of higher protein intake and greater eating frequency on appetite control in overweight and obese men. Obesity (Silver Spring). 2010 Mar 25. [Epub ahead of print] [Medline]

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:09 am 
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great post here: http://www.leangains.com/2011/03/interm ... -loss.html

Accompanying studies supporting the intermittent fasting protocol:
Halberg N, Henriksen M, Soderhamn N. Effect of intermittent fasting and refeeding on insulin action in healthy men. J Appl Physiol 2005; 99: 2128–2136.

Michalsen A, Riegert M, Ludtke R. Mediterranean diet or extended fasting’s influence on changing the intestinal microflora, immunoglobulin A secretion and clinical outcome in patients with rheumatoid arthritis and fibromyalgia: an observational study. BMC Complement Altern Med 2005; 5: 22.

Heilbronn LK, Smith SR, Martin CK, Anton SD, Ravussin E. Alternate-day fasting in nonobese subjects: effects on body weight, body composition, and energy metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr 2005; 81: 69–73.

Johnson JB, Summer W, Cutler RG. Alternate day calorie restriction improves clinical findings and reduces markers of oxidative stress and inflammation in overweight adults with moderate asthma. Free Radic Biol Med 2007; 42: 665–674.

Varady KA, Bhutani S, Church EC, Klempel MC. Short-term modified alternate-day fasting: a novel dietary strategy for weight loss and cardioprotection in obese adults. Am J Clin Nutr 2009; 90: 1138–1143.

Varady KA, Bhutani S, Klempel MC, Kroeger C. Effect of alternate day fasting combined with exercise on body composition parameters in obese adults. Unpublished data.

Varady KA, Allister CA, Hellerstein MK. Effect of alternate day fasting on lipid metabolism in obese humans. Unpublished data.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:12 am 
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Great study that examines the importance of eating CHO at certain times, has plenty of data for blood glucose levels:

http://www.e-spenjournal.org/article/S1751-4991(10)00054-5/abstract

Once you get through those and debunk them let me know. Not all of us are pros that expend 3000kj/ride, so having a little strategy to dieting helps. I feel really sorry for the people that actually pay you for advice considering all I've used is Google, Pubmed, various databases, and sent some emails.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:42 am 
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so much knowledge. so little wisdom.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:56 am 
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For shits and giggles I will go through all of the studies listed given you took the time to list them.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:14 am 
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While you're at it, why not address the proponents of IF directly on Twitter or a public forum since they are still much more knowledgeable than I. Remember that I only recommended using it very selectively, not all the time and not like a strength athlete would. I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as they are, but I found he subject interesting so I read each and every study while I was on a work assignment during the off-season. Interesting stuff. What I recommended above is really about just delaying CHO in the morning and eating more protein and less CHO during base since its not necessary for many/most.

and yet you refuse to ever list your credentials and remain anonymous, but we should trust that some dude behind the keyboard with a 3 w/kg is an elite coach.

Explain to me the lack of wisdom behind a protocol that has quite a bit of research to back it up to better time when someone eats what they eat (a normal person). If I were to break down what eat by percentages, I and others that follow certain protocols still get in enough total kcal and more than enough CHO to fuel and recover from their training.

You still can't answer the simple question of how delaying eating breakfast for a few hours could impeded recovery on a rest day? I only use something similar to IF (loosely speaking) on days where I work a day job and rides are sub 3 hrs. As I said above, if my rides were longer, I had a higher weekly volume, or were training for a very glycogen dependent event this would be different. During base its another.

There were a few other studies I posted on Wattage that listed the different amounts of energy expenditure per energy source at several percentages of vo2 max. Under 90% of vo2 max and with adequate exogenous fueling during the ride an athlete will walk away with under 600cal of glycogen depletion from a 3 hr ride with 1 hr spent at 90% of vo2 max. That's 150g of carbs, or what they would take in during the post ride period. Even if the ride were 5 hours, it might deplete 200kcal more out of stores of 2050kcal. During races or a build that utilized a lot of vo2 max and above efforts its definitely more and one could increase CHO accordingly.

What I find amazing is most cyclists "Can't keep on weight", but aren't lean, just skinny fat.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:50 am 
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Still reading...

You and anyone else here doesn't have to believe a word I say. People I coach do and that's all I care about - that they perform and perform well. As for my credentials I''ve posted as much personal information on the net that I am willing to.

But you've never posted your credentials either, so why don't you putty up and give away your personal background on the net. C'mon champ', what, where and when did you study?

As for my *awesome* 3 w/kgs - you'll have to take a better shot than that. Amazingly the laws of specificity apply even to me and when one does not cycle one does not possess a good FTP. Triangle chokes and armbars do not transfer well to cycling, who would have thought? If you think that current performance is an indicator of past experience and ability or diminishes current knowledge then you're pretty naive or plain stupid. Or struggling for insults.

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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:05 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Bonking on purpose
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