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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:24 pm 
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Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:41 am
Posts: 63
[/quote]normally when you put a deposit on something you know what it is

using customers money to develop your product is bad practice, what happens when/if it fails[/quote]

A WW with cash to burn could care less. If the (insert name of Vapor Ware here) claims to lighten up a bike, then all requirements have been met.

At one time I saw ZERO G brakes EVERYWHERE, on everyone's bikes. Then they just began to disappear. I asked some of the former owners and the consensus was;
it was an overpriced, single pivot caliper that couldn't deliver the stopping power of dual pivot caliper AND they would never stay centered. Thus they went away.

Regarding this crank made from (2) carbon rods and a carbon cover, well........it will most likely be just fine making a coffee run. And that may more than surpass some customer's needs. But if it is pressed into action and you have an unfortunate touch down with Terra Firma at your local crit and the pedal augers in, it may get ugly.

R-Sys anyone?


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Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:24 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:20 am 
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Its not the paying customers job to do the the testing for equipment .If it's on sale and ready to go then it should not have any issues. Im at 84kilos solid and ride my bike nearly everyday and would be happy to give this crank a good thrashing round London and outer areas in all weathers but im not willing to pay for an untested crank on a £5000 guru frame and be used as a guinea pig . I think that this crank could turn out to be something special but should not be on sale until it is that product.
Have to agree with skinnywellfed and others ....


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:26 am 
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btompkins0112 wrote:
bikedoc wrote:
coming soon (not really) after we have taken 200 more deposits to use for R&D :twisted:


That's pretty much the definition of a pre-order.....ramp up cash flow for final development and production. Standard business practice.


That's NOT standard practice. :roll:

Pre-orders are for a quick recouping of upfront investment ( and pay for outstanding bills) and plough back into FINAL PRODUCTION, not development. In this case, RE-Development.

In this case, its not even Beta-testing ... in fact its even prior to Alpha commission ... :shock:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:36 am 
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We are not talking large, well capitalized companies here. For small, start-ups it is important to create revenue early in the product cycle....in mid cycle you may discover a problem in the development and you need to change the design. If you don't feel comfortable fronting some seed money for the development, then by all means ask for a refund, but don't insinuate Ted is trying to steal or defraud anyone.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:17 am 
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btompkins0112 wrote:
We are not talking large, well capitalized companies here. For small, start-ups it is important to create revenue early in the product cycle....in mid cycle you may discover a problem in the development and you need to change the design.


I may be mistaken about who 'Ted' is exactly............but..............if he's the guy behind the Zero G's, wouldn't it be reasonable to think he may have been able to put back some of the profits over these years? I don't consider the co. selling the Zero G as a 'start up'.

Actually, coming here looking for cash seems a bit amateurish. And the method is certain to create some ill will and disappointment.

On a related note, does anyone remember the titanium ONZA mtb crank? That was a train wreck that never made it to the consumer. It snapped under quite a few testers, (testers) NOT customers.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:09 am 
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skinnywellfed,

I am going to assume positive intent, and that Ted was given his good customers a discount. I see no reason to so assume anything else.

C


and as I said before........

"I have said it before and will say it again!!!

Go TED GO!!!!! : )"


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:34 am 
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Location: Gien, France
skinnywellfed wrote:
At one time I saw ZERO G brakes EVERYWHERE, on everyone's bikes. Then they just began to disappear. I asked some of the former owners and the consensus was;
it was an overpriced, single pivot caliper that couldn't deliver the stopping power of dual pivot caliper AND they would never stay centered. Thus they went away.


Well, this doesn't represent the reality of the market for Zero G brakes. As a distributor I have different figures because I base my analyses on hundreds of sets and I keep in touch with a high percentage of customers.
I do not agree at all with the stopping power, this is completely wrong. I have some customers for which I setup the bikes who complained because the stopping power was too strong (on GSS, NGTi, GSL).
What is true is that you need a professional setup of the brakes. If your brakes are old and need to be checked, I personally look after the European market, and Ted the US market (I personally keep the brakes for less than 24h and ship back with the updates that you've chose on my website velo-perso.com).
What is wrong also, is that on versions after 2010 you don't need to center the brakes all the time. They auto center ! The initial centering operation is enough, except if you change the wheels, because all wheels are different (not centered exactly the same way) and you may have to make a small adjustment of 1mm or less.
So, that's true that some customers have decided to come back to standard brakes but it's the same for many other products, not only Zero G brakes. These customers have probably not tested the 3 star after sales service that I'm supplying in Europe and decided that Zero G brakes should be setup exactly as they setup dura ace brakes... but for a hundred grams saved they should make the effort to understand the specificity of Zero G brakes.
You cannot imagine how many customers are using the spacers of factory brakes... which shouldn't be used if you want the brakes to be auto centered.
You must use Ciamillo seat stay and fork spacers if you want to protect your frameset.

As of today we have many customers who are already riding 2 different Zero G sets. Ted and me have observed this year that many of them have bought a 3rd set !

So, I agree that Zero G brakes are not a mass market product. But they are definitely an amazing product for specialists who want to setup the best bike that it's possible as of today with a light weight and great stopping power.

Ted and me are focused on the development of new products that will enlarge our markets. We are aware that the Zero G setup is more difficult than the average, and we expect supplying a crank that will be easier to install than the average.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:55 am 
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Location: Gien, France
skinnywellfed wrote:
btompkins0112 wrote:
We are not talking large, well capitalized companies here. For small, start-ups it is important to create revenue early in the product cycle....in mid cycle you may discover a problem in the development and you need to change the design.


I may be mistaken about who 'Ted' is exactly............but..............if he's the guy behind the Zero G's, wouldn't it be reasonable to think he may have been able to put back some of the profits over these years? I don't consider the co. selling the Zero G as a 'start up'.

Actually, coming here looking for cash seems a bit amateurish. And the method is certain to create some ill will and disappointment.

On a related note, does anyone remember the titanium ONZA mtb crank? That was a train wreck that never made it to the consumer. It snapped under quite a few testers, (testers) NOT customers.


I don't have the figures among the small businesses in the USA that have been earning money during 2002-2007 and that successfully kept the cash as a treasure that they are now able to reinvest. They should not be the majority ! I cannot reply for Ted, but what is sure is that he has invested money in production capacities that are as of today not completely used. The crank will use these means of production !

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Like I said before "should have gone on dragons den" :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:19 pm 
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@lewolive :goodpost:

except......

lewolive wrote:
because all wheels are different (not centered exactly the same way)


I don't quite understand that. Surely all wheels are centred to the same centreline, that's what centred means. Some are wider for sure, but I'm not aware of any asymmetric wheels, or are there some?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Location: Gien, France
stephen@fibre-lyte wrote:
@lewolive :goodpost:

except......

lewolive wrote:
because all wheels are different (not centered exactly the same way)


I don't quite understand that. Surely all wheels are centred to the same centreline, that's what centred means. Some are wider for sure, but I'm not aware of any asymmetric wheels, or are there some?


I have 2 handmade wheels (1 Kinlin/1Reynolds) and I can say that there is about 0.5/1mm of difference in terms of centering. I know that on DA brakes I would probably not change the centering, but on Gravitas very close to the rim, I adjust the springnut each time I change the wheels, but yes, it's working without this operation.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:26 pm 
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Location: Bay State
I have bikes with DA 7900 brakes, KCNC C7, cantilever, SL Gravitas, Zero-G's and SL Negative G's. Swapping out wheelsets not being centered can indicate a dishing issue and I'd have that fixed regardless of the brakes being used so the wheel/tires track on the road correctly. In my experience, the single pivot Ciamillo brakes are less forgiving of dishing issues and rim widths and require a few minutes of tweaking when swapping rims out. But if you notice, even the dbl pivot brakes adjusted perfectly so the pads make contact to the rims evenly on one wheelset don't on another. If you are not overly fussy about your bikes setup (unlike me), dbl pivot brakesets typically have greater tolerances to rim width/dishing issues.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:35 pm 
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lewolive wrote:

I have 2 handmade wheels (1 Kinlin/1Reynolds) and I can say that there is about 0.5/1mm of difference in terms of centering. I know that on DA brakes I would probably not change the centering, but on Gravitas very close to the rim, I adjust the springnut each time I change the wheels, but yes, it's working without this operation.


That's a lot of off-centering. You should just get your wheels re-dished and recentered proper.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Really interesting where this has started from and where it's up to now... i'm excited to see more!
:popcorn:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Location: Gien, France
Image

Well, the green points are locking the junction between aluminum and carbon tubes. I trust Ted on the forces that are applying on a such part.

The prototype will be finally a BB30 in order to fit the bikes that Ted and me are currently riding. So it's compatible with all frames on the market except Trek Madone. But there will be shortly a BB24 available.

Ted has just told me that there was only the spider to machine and the to assemble to the rest of the crank. Then the prototype will be ready.... I hope this week !
The spider is easy to machine as it's just a double sided aluminum part and he has already machined one for the V1.

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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:03 pm 


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