Ciamillo carbon crank now with pre-launch offer information!

Back by popular demand, the general all-things Road forum!

Moderator: robbosmans

Locked
RichTheRoadie
Tinker, Taylor, Tart
Posts: 2070
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:00 pm
Location: Sydney, Aus.

by RichTheRoadie

The shaping of the aluminium near the guy's thumb indicates to me that there will be a cover of some description going over the tubing. I might be wrong, but it certainly looks that way.

I kind of hope not to be honest as the radical looks really appeal to me, but from a marketing / aesthetics perspective I think they'd need to cover the tubes up to make sales as I think it'd turn more people away than it would attract.

As an aside, from an aero perspective it's probably less aero than an R-SYS wheel... :lol:

If I am wrong I think the tube design will struggle to work visually with many bikes. In fact to my mind the only bikes it would work with are the Passoni / Legend / IF / English / other bikes that are part metal, part carbon.

I like it as a concept, and it's actually the kind of thing that I like enough to build a bike around. My biggest fear would be creaking and noise...

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



User avatar
Mattias Hellöre
in the industry
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:34 pm
Location: Insjön, SWEDEN
Contact:

by Mattias Hellöre

It seems it is actual version which will be delivered at the weight of 390 grams, so I will cancel my order immediately.

First of all, I dont like aluminium to carbon bonding as the glue bond cannot achieve same stiffness as carbon or aluminum. So the weak part is glue bond and how about corrosion?
Bonding a axle to crank is a thing, a completely different thing is incorporate 8-12 more joints with glue.

I liked the first version and my impression was Ted did a weight tuning on existent cranks than make a 180 degree turn and present a design change after money is laid.

There´s a lot of people who have different taste than me, they do love this design but not me.
That´s all.

I hope Ted can get this design floating and making development from there.
Experimental Prototype

ghisallo2003
Posts: 742
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:10 pm

by ghisallo2003

I think the new design is a wonderful new departure from existing methods and looks, and I wish it well. I hope they are as successful as the first generation brakes, which I used for many years and for which I received excellent after-sales service.

The fundamental change however in the crank design, between first floating the design here, taking orders and then finalising is consistent with a company who are not clearly thinking through changes in a systematic market oriented way and appear to be coming to market without adequate testing, even of the underlying concept. Sadly it would appear that lessons from previous product development and launch here are not being learned.

LionelB
Posts: 1595
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:09 pm
Location: Aix en Provence

by LionelB

ghisallo2003 wrote:I think the new design is a wonderful new departure from existing methods and looks, and I wish it well. I hope they are as successful as the first generation brakes, which I used for many years and for which I received excellent after-sales service.

The fundamental change however in the crank design, between first floating the design here, taking orders and then finalising is consistent with a company who are not clearly thinking through changes in a systematic market oriented way and appear to be coming to market without adequate testing, even of the underlying concept. Sadly it would appear that lessons from previous product development and launch here are not being learned.


+1

User avatar
bura
Posts: 842
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:07 pm
Location: Civitatis Vaticanae

by bura

I agree to Ghisallo's views.
But the design just looks very "different" to what is already on the market.

@elviento: I think there is more detail into this design than you have pointed out within your post.
Do not know and a very vague thinking is that the alloy-carbon joints seem to be go-through joints with some tapered carbon heads
which I have marked below.
Ciamillo IMG_20121130_141557.jpg
Kuota Kom Evo
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=111825&p=955235#p955235" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SOLD

User avatar
Mattias Hellöre
in the industry
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:34 pm
Location: Insjön, SWEDEN
Contact:

by Mattias Hellöre

To clarify things:
I do respect Ted´s effort to make products with competitive pricing and performance.
I preordered my Ciamillo crankset, and own ZeroG brakes, they perform well in any weather here in middle of Sweden.

Anyway, here´s my thoughts.
Since the pedal is cantilevered out from the crank arm it acts with a shear force on the crank arm.
This means that the torsional integrity of the crank arm is crucial. In this design the glued ca/alu sleeved joint is taking all the shear force right into the bond. Alu / carbon bonds are notoriously prone to corrosion and just plain don't bond well together. This is why you will see Ti / Carbon or Carbon / Carbon bonds in top quality products.
Alu and carbon is just not a good combination in a structural joint with high shear forces. Any moisture or condensation will make it worse (think battery). The carbon needs to be insulated usually by reinforcing the resin with fiberglass.
Just to reduce the possibility to galvanic corrosion, that´s why I wrote just like battery above.
Experimental Prototype

User avatar
elviento
Posts: 1199
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:09 pm
Location: In the industry
Contact:

by elviento

Thanks for pointing out the two outlets. I did notice that but since the tubes appear to be round-ish, I doubt it would be a simple press-fit arrangement, as you would then have to consider how to resist the twisting forces between different carbon rods. Afterall, carbon tubes don't always maintain the diameter that well under pressure (remember how a fork steerer expands after you screw in an expander plug?).

PS: agree with Matt's view above re shear forces.
Fast falcons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3mTPEuFcWk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
www.falcobike.com
Facebook: falcobikeglobal

mrfish
Posts: 1749
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:49 pm
Location: Near Horgen, Switzerland

by mrfish

Interesting concept, but pulling stunts like taking money from people to buy a product then offering them something totally different would not be acceptable in any other profession. Post 6 in this thread:

mrfish wrote:Great, but perhaps they could focus on getting the customer service basics right (and fixing previously unfixed issues) before rolling out new product - lots of history here suggests that if anything goes wrong with the product it will not be plain sailing.


Good luck with getting something for your money, other than pain and broken promises.

artray
Posts: 1347
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:08 pm

by artray

Carbon fiber and aluminum are at opposite ends of the galvanic scale. Soon as moisture is present and it will be i.e wet/damp roads or living near a coast then galvanic corrosion will occur and this crank will bite the dust. I have had this happen on a frame with a alu seatpost, the whole frame was wrecked. This crank needs a rethink IMO .
Mattias Hellöre :thumbup:

RichTheRoadie
Tinker, Taylor, Tart
Posts: 2070
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:00 pm
Location: Sydney, Aus.

by RichTheRoadie

I know it looks like aluminium, but do we know it is? I realise it probably and most likely is, but I'm just curious...

User avatar
bura
Posts: 842
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:07 pm
Location: Civitatis Vaticanae

by bura

BikeTart wrote:I know it looks like aluminium, but do we know it is?

This is exactly my thinking. Mathias' as well as some other comments are way too definitive for me.
We may wait for the pics Ted promised us.
Kuota Kom Evo
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=111825&p=955235#p955235" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SOLD

bikedoc
Posts: 638
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:16 pm

by bikedoc

My guess is they needed money so took deposits on something that doesnt exist to help cash flow. We know already that no one is getting what they put a deposit on as the design keeps changing.

User avatar
Mattias Hellöre
in the industry
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:34 pm
Location: Insjön, SWEDEN
Contact:

by Mattias Hellöre

Based on experience.

Aluminum - galvanic corrosion to carbon fiber is a very apparent problem.
Magnesium - the same applies here, even worser as slightest scratch on surface does let the Mg rot very quickly, likes to burn up your swarfs.
Titanium - too heavy and very hard to machine and requires stable machines and good tooling - not exactly cheap either.

Then you are running out of possibilities.

The only alternative is left here - Aluminum, I have hands on experience on aluminum in various constructions, I can say anodized aluminum is the worst possible material to bond on carbon fiber, the glue bond will release from the anodized surface faster than you eat up your Jell-O.
Experimental Prototype

User avatar
runner999
Posts: 316
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:01 am
Location: Bay State

by runner999

This raises and interesting point about aluminum/carbon bonding methods. How is the bonding of aluminum spindles and pedal thread inserts different as seen on most carbon cranks? We also see aluminum mixed with carbon on many bicycle components. Please clarify how this is different. :roll:
Last edited by runner999 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

topflightpro
Posts: 829
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:35 am

by topflightpro

I too have experienced issues with galvanic corrosion between carbon and aluminum. My System 6 is flaking apart at the joints.

My other thought on this design is what is to keep the crank arms from twisting? I could see that being a problem, though I am no engineer.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Locked