The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
Hugo7
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:12 pm

by Hugo7

...and to think after much time and procrastination I'd decided exactly what I want :S

Rims: the H+ archetype is a bit more £s and it seemed easier (and cheaper) to grab everything from BHS. Their spokes in particular are good value. Also the only H+ archetype's I've seen have a non-msw. On a road bike I'd prefer MSW. But I'll have another look at them.

Drilling: So you'd suggest 24h on the front over 20h for my weight? I don't have very strong feelings either way, 24h was my original plan, but I was swayed by someone who was a bit heavier saying they'd go 20h/28h over 24h/28h as there isn't a need for more spokes on the front.

Lacing: I wouldn't go down to a 20h on the rear on this set, but surely if on 28h with x1 on the NDS a spoke failing shouldn't take out the rear wheel? Again I'm not militant on this so, I'll accept all churches.

Hubs: I'll check out the Novatec's you suggested. My choice was largely budget driven, but I wanted a wider front hub to add some strength.

Nipples: I am still a little undecided. I've only worked with alu nips once on a mate's front wheel. At the moment I'm thinking:
* front = alu,
* rear NDS = brass or maybe alu
* rear DS = brass


I appreciate the input. It's all food for thought. I am very guided by price and I want a reasonable weight, but also aware of the importance of having something that functions appropriately. TBH I think my original build list shows pretty accurately where my various priorities lie.

eric
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by eric

I'd do Lasers front and NDS, Race DS. 28h rear. If you use the SL211 hub, consider DS 1x heads in. It makes a laterally stiffer wheel. But there may be spoke to derailleur clearance issues depending on your equipment. I had no problems with a 7900 derailleur but with 2012 Red I added a second 1mm spacer behind the cassette. That actually made the cassette line up with my race wheels (White Ind hubs) so no derailleur diddling is required when switching wheels. I use 26t or 27t large cogs, if you're using smaller cogs there's more of a chance of interference.

The laterally stiffer wheel and less unequal tension is good for me because I tend to break spokes on rear wheels. I'm not heavy (140-145 lbs) but there's something about my pedaling style when standing on climbs that's tough on wheels. And I do a lot of climbing. I break NDS spokes at the elbow where they flex. Using thicker DS spokes and thin NDS spokes also helps as the NDS spokes have to stretch more to reach tension, so they are less likely to go completely slack.

by Weenie


bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

H+ sons rims do come in NMSW. As for spoking I think I over build wheels so that's why I suggest 24H front.

istigatrice
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Location: Adelaide, Australia

by istigatrice

What does NMSW and MSW stand for? :noidea:
I write the weightweenies blog, hope you like it :)

My SwiftCarbon Ultravox

My Velocite Selene

Disclosure: I'm sponsored by Velocite, but I do give my honest opinion about them (I'm endorsed to race their bikes, not say nice things about them)

thisisatest
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by thisisatest

Machined Side Wall
Non-Machined Side Wall

Hugo7
Posts: 33
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:12 pm

by Hugo7

Thanks again for the comments.

Following bm0p700f's point about the hub flange spacing means I'm leaning towards the Novatec F482 hub on the rear. Also I like the idea of the Anti Bite Guard thing on the freehub body.

http://www.bdopcycling.com/Novatec/Hubs/F482SB-SL.png

...plus bdopcycling.com has some unbranded ones in silver 28h so they won't clash with the BHS front. That said they are heavier, and I need to get them from somewhere else. So if anyone has a any other reasons for favouring one over the other, I'd be interested. I think I'm going to stick with the BHS SLF85W on the front as it's wide, well priced, and a decent weight.

I'm still having a think about the H+Sons. The price increase has now been negated somewhat by seeing that they're a tenner cheaper from BHS than I can find in the UK. They're also "nicer" and lighter, but a little shallower. I haven't heard anything about the aero benefits - but if that was the major concern I'd be making different choices overall.


Front:
Rim: BHS C472w (or H+ Archetype) 20 hole
Hub: SLF85W: SuperLight Wide 20 hole
Lacing: x2 (probably)
Spokes: Sapim Laser
Nips: Alu (probably... and maybe internal for looks)


Rear:
Rim: BHS C472w (or H+ Archetype) 28 hole
Hub: Novatec F482 (or SL211) - 28 hole
Lacing: 2x NDS and 1x DS (heads in)
Spokes (DS): Sapim Race
Spokes (NDS): Sapim Laser
Nips (DS): Brass
Nips (NDS): Alu (probably)

...time to tot up the weights and prices :S

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

On the CTC forum there has been an interesting post regarding spoke length and tension. The poster posted some maths. I like maths as it proves a point well. The result was spoke length does have an influence on tension, something I thought was not the case or I didn't think it made a practicle difference. In partiular by using different crossing on each side of the wheel you can alter the tension balance a bit.

The result. d is DS n is NDS. W is flange spacing on that side and L is spoke length

Td/Tn= (Wn/Wd)(Ld/Ln)

http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70387

For example my winter bikes rear wheel.
Miche Primato hub DS flange spacing =16.75mm NDS flange spacing = 38mm
Rim is a 28H DT Swiss RR415 using spokes 285mm DS and 287 mm NDS. DS tension repects the limit on the rim at 107 kgf or in proper units 1050N. NDS tension is 47 kgf or 460N. The rear wheel is laced 2x.

So I I were to relace the wheel 2x DS and 3x NDS the tension would change (NDS) to 49 kgf or 480 N. That is measurable and would be worth it. So to Hugo it may be worth lacing you rear wheel 2x DS and 3x NDS!

Doing 1x heads in DS will have the same effect but try doing 3x NDS for further tension balance. I have done some sums for the BHS hub with 1x Ds and 2x NDS, 2x lacing each side and 1x DS and 3x DS

The results. I will assume 120 kgf DS tension or 1175N.
1xDs and 2x NDS tension will be 56.1 kgf or 550N.
2x both side NDS tension will be 54.7 kgf or 535N.
1x DS and 3x NDS will result in NDS tension of 57.9 kgf or 567N.

A worth while increase for 1x and 3x lacing. It will also add tortional stiffness. I have yet to try this and see the results. I had though about it before but rejected the idea as pointless. It may not be.

Hugo7
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Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:12 pm

by Hugo7

Cheers.

Yet more food for thought :S

I'm now realising that paying a wheelbuilder has other benefits... such as not having to consider any of this stuff :)

The one thing I wonder is what the bracing angle will be on x3 28h? I'm using a fairly shallow rim.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Rim depth from spoke calc does not mach of a difference to bracing angle
for example My miche hubs ( NDS =38mm DS = 16.75mm flange dia = 46mm both sides) on a RR415 rim with 20mm depth has a DS angle of 3.4 degrees when laced 2x. If I used a 30mm depth rim of ERD of 577mm then that DS angle is 3.6 degrees. So it helps a bit. This is another reason why deep section rims make stiffer wheels, it not just the increased lateral stiffness of the rim. Also the spoke for the deeper rim will be sharter. Shorter spokes make a stiffer wheel which is why 2x lacing is a little stiffer laterally than 3x lacing although there is not much
in it.

Also 3x lacing gives marginally lower bracing angle than 2x and of course 1x. So 1x DS inreases bracing angle espeially id done heads in. 3x NDS will drop the bracing angle on the H+ sons Archetype and BHS hub to 7.3 degrees from 7.5 degrees if it done 2x. So in summary 1x heads in DS and 2x NDS will give maximum stiffness. Using 1x DS heads in and 3x DS will reduce lateral stiff a little bit but give you a 30 extra Newtons of NDS spoke tension.

I like this forum as posting does make me think and the above about spoke length and tension has only ust revealed it self to me thanks to the CTC forum. I am glad that poster presented the maths behind it as I wouldn't have believed it otherwise. Having said that it is obvious as the crossing number effect bracing angle.

jooo
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by jooo

A rather extreme visual example, albeit from a difference in hub flanges rather than rim ERD.

Image

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kavitator
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by kavitator

i need advice

Wheel Planet X 60mm aluminium/carbon clincher(rim is 600g)
24 spokes, CHOOSEN hub (hub is very light 190g)
Rider is around 90kg

I think that wheelset is not for more than 80kg rider - aluminium rim is 19mm deep and sorounded with carbon fiber shell (fatter than Cosmic SL)

But anyway i must get as much as i can from 24 spokes and that rim.
Will Sapim CX spokes give extra stiffnes than CX RAYs on DS?

My plan is going with CX 2x cross on DS and maby CX Rays 2x on NDS

thisisatest
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by thisisatest

jooo wrote:A rather extreme visual example, albeit from a difference in hub flanges rather than rim ERD.

Image

Interestingly, that picture is not entirely accurate. The pic draws out the spoke bracing angles as if they are all laced radially. Obviously, they are not. The spoke coming from the top of the rim does not stop at the top of the flange, but instead continues to the flange further around the hub, and in the 2d view, assuming nearly tangential lacing, stops almost at the axle line. It would do so in both scenarios, with a very, very small difference in bracing angle.
The large flange would benefit bracing angle if the lacing was not anywhere close to tangential, and it still stiffens the wheel up in torsion.

teleguy57
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:29 am

by teleguy57

bm0p700f wrote:
I like this forum as posting does make me think and the above about spoke length and tension has only ust revealed it self to me thanks to the CTC forum. I am glad that poster presented the maths behind it as I wouldn't have believed it otherwise. Having said that it is obvious as the crossing number effect bracing angle.


Me too! and I really appreciate your contributions.

The last rear I built was a Nemesis rim on a 32 hole Campy Chorus hub (the large axle silver version -- drool :D ) and based on the info below from http://spokeanwheel.110mb.com/lacingsr.htm#23 I laced 3x DS 2x NDS to improve the strength.

A mixed lacing pattern I discovered that works very well for balancing rear wheel lateral strengths is the 2-cross/3-cross lacing. This pattern uses 2-cross lacing on the non drive side and 3-cross lacing on the drive side. The non drive side spokes end up being shorter than the drive side spokes, a condition that causes theoretical force vector triangles that counteracts the dish offset of the wheel. This theoretical triangle is comprised of the real force vectors of the spokes and a theoretical force vector across the hub.

The figure to the right is a simplified version of the theoretical force vector triangles created by this lacing. The RED lines represent the force vectors of the spokes, and the BLUE line represents the force vector of the theoretical third side of the triangle. The location of a 3-cross length spoke on the non drive side is indicated by the GREEN spoke head for your reference. The PURPLE line, which is perpendicular to the BLUE force vector, indicates that the rim is closer to the non drive side of this theoretical force vector triangle.

Having a theoretical force vector triangle with the opposite circumstances of the actual triangles formed by drive and non drive spoke pairs works against the imbalance caused by the dish offset. A wheel built like this still has the drive side spokes under greater tension, but the difference in the tensions is not as great as they would be if the wheel was laced conventionally. Since the spoke tensions do not vary as much, the wheel has lateral strength characteristics that are more balanced than typical. It has been my experience that these wheels do hold true much better than conventionally laced (all 3-cross) multi-speed rear wheels.

Image


From what you've said I'm now confused about doing this; as you wrote about 1x DS 3x NDS building more even tensions.

How does one think about DS/NDS tension vs bracing angle?

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

1x DS and 3x NDs is the most exterme version. 2x DS and 3X NDS would be better for many hubs and the load on DS flange will be lower.

Doing 2x DS and 3x NDS result in a slighter higher NDS tension compared to doing 2x or 3x both both sides. Lacing 3xDS and 2x NDs does result in shorter NDs spokes than the DS but also it will end up with lower NDFs tesnions than 2x or 3x lacing both sides would give. so I don't get the article quoted either I ran the niumbers just to be sure.

For Miche hub at DT Swiss RR415 28H.
2x DS and 3x NDS spoke lengths are 285mm DS and 296mm NDS. For 107 kgf DS tension NDS tension = 107*(16.75/285)*(296/38) = 49 kgf or 480N

3x DS and 2x NDS spoke length are 294mm DS and 287mm NDS. For 107 kgf DS tension NDs tension = (107*(16.75)/294)*(287/38) = 46 kgf or 450N.

the latter lacing pattern stricks me as poorer but DS bracing angle is the same at 3.3 degrees for 2x or 3x lacing. NDs bracing angle also remains unchanged between the two versions at 7.4 degrees. So the best option is obvious unless I made some kind of dreadful mistsake.

In principle longer spoke means lower bracing angles but changing the 1x lacing give a NDs bracing angle of 7.8, 2x =7.6 3x =7.4 and 4x =7.1 degerees. the DS bracing anles are1x 3.5, 2x 3.4, 3x, 3.3 and 4x 3.1 for this Miche DT build.

bazman
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:39 pm
Location: east yorkshire

by bazman

hi there im a new member anyone collect spoke keys

by Weenie


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