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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:23 pm 
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Location: phoenix, az
I very recently had the opportunity to complete a VO2 max test for free, so I figured I would go for it and hopefully be able to learn from it to better establish my training zones and be more knowledgeable in general about how my body is doing. However, I am now realizing that the most useful data that I could obtain would actually be my FTP or LT, or more specifically in my case my LTHR, as I do not have a power meter (I know that is another can of worms in its own).

With that said, what useful or is there any useful information that can be derived from my VO2 max test as it pertains to training by heart rate, more accurately establishing training zones or LT, etc? I've been searching for a few days now and not finding much information, or information specific to what I'm seeking...hoping someone can lend some advice. Can LTHR be derived from a VO2max test and would it be more accurate than the field test?

Currently, my hr training zones are based off of approximate LTHR, derived from the 30 min time trial test, and averaging the sustained hr in the last 20 minutes. Interestingly enough my current heart rate zones corresponded to the various RER zones in the test, in terms of what fuel source you are consuming (i.e. RER values in the .7 range in zone 2, reaching 1.0 RER just above what I think is my current LTHR/z5, etc.)

I'm 27, 5'7.5" (171.5cm), race around 136lbs (161.7kg), but currently weigh around 142 lbs, cat 3 road, and have been racing for 2.5 years. Max VO2 from the test was 68.6 ml/kg/min, 4.49L/min. Additionally, this test was performed about 8 weeks into base training, or at the end of my base 2 block.

Thanks in advance for any information or information sources you might be able to provide.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:33 pm 
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not sure how much more useful would be to derive your LTHR from your Vo2max test VS the one you currently have.

I'd just stick with the one you have right now, I did train with that sort of LTHR for a while and its pretty usefull for long steady efforts. You could also what the trend in your HR curve from your Vo2max test but I dont think its worth it that much.

A bunch of info can be useful from a vo2max test, did you have your ventilatory threshold established? What protocol was used? Did they check your blood lactate buildup? Any power informations?


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Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:33 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Location: phoenix, az
Thanks!

I'm not sure what ventilatory threshold is, but there is a column listed as "Vt BTPS, measured in L", not sure what value I would look at there though. I was given a printout with a lot of different columns of values, but was explained that most of them are somewhat arbitrary and are the data used to calculate the VO2 max, mind you this was free because it was students at the local university doing their senior research project.

The test began at 180 watts @90rpms on the computrainer with resistance increased in 30 watt increments every 2 minutes. Data was measured every 20 seconds, but no blood analysis was done. My max was hit after 8 minutes - 300 watts, which seems low, but I really don't have any comparison.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:00 pm 
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I guess the most valuable information is the power datas, The other are interesting but of little value for training. The HR curve can be useful too.

Given you've been riding for little time I'd just focus on structured training, developping the aerobic engine working out with HR and when you can afford a PM, go for it!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:46 pm 
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Its been a while since I did exercise physiology but if you have the data points for VCO2 and VO2 you can approximate lactate threshold where the two curves diverge. This is the ventilatory threshold and is a close approximation of lactate threshold.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:23 pm 
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Location: Geneva
Just had mine done as well and was wondering similar questions. Unfortunately, the power wasn't working so only had heart rate and the gas exchange numbers. However, from those, as mentioned above, you should be able to tell at what heart rates you start building substantial lactate.

Questions of my own...my understanding is that fitness doesn't play a huge part in your vo2 max level? I was at 71 but have only started riding again in the past month, and nothing more than an hour on the rollers with a few intervals thrown in. Let's say 3-5 hours a week. I'm guessing that doesn't matter much though to vo2 max?

Assuming I work pretty hard, what's a reasonable ceiling for 20 min w/kg? I was hitting around 4.7 last year. Is 5 w/kg within the realm of possibility? Fwiw I'm 180cm and 78kg in winter and 75 in summer. I'm fairly low body fat year round, just put on a bit more bulk for skiing injury prevention in winter.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:58 pm 
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there is no way to predict a ceiling of some sort. Only way to find out is train hard and smart and see what happens.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:04 am 
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You have done the best test possible. You should now know your AT. Everything should be based off of AT. LTHR and FTP are pure fiction. AT and LT are not the same thing. At is a red line, go over it for to long, 5-7min and blow.

more info on LT.
http://www.coachr.org/lactate.htm

You should have received a chart or numbers that give you your Anaerobic threshold, ie the max amount work that can be done by the body with the amount of oxygen you can take in before the body has to take extraordinary means to go harder. HR at AT is fairly constant over time, assuming a consistent active life. My HR at AT has only gone down by 6 beats in the last 15+ years and I am in my late 40s. The amount of work at that HR does change. 30-60 minute output is a performance measure not a physiological measure, nothing magical happens in your body after 30 minutes, muscles just get fatigued.

Try these to for intervals at VO2 max
http://www.enhancedfp.com/sport-specifi ... y-thibault
http://www.athleticsearch.com/thibaultgraph.pdf

The difficulty with basing training zones off of HR at AT is that the shorter the time frame of the effort, the more it is the ending HR of the interval not the starting HR. With out power you would need to guess your pace such that your HR was at AT after 2 to 3 minutes. Zone2 HR based off of AT is very good.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:35 pm 
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FTP might be all fiction but its a handy indicator to base training intensity off of for power meter users. HR is good also, but much less then then power and involves a lot of guess work and variability, which power does not.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:57 am 
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Totally agree on the training hard part, was just interesting to see where probabilites would put things. It's good to have hard, but achievable goals I think.

I'll get the full set of numbers later this week, but the upshot was that my LT was around 169 bpm (keep in mind, relatively untrained so far this year, last year I held 172 bpm and fairly constant power output for an hour). Annoyingly the power output wasn't working for this test, but c'est la vie. My AT was around 140 bpm, but interstingly, I stayed right around that threshold almost until 155 bpm where I swtiched over to real aerobic work. This also confirmed for me that I need to do my base kms in the 130-140 range which always felt more like the case rather than 120-130 let's say.

I'll post more data when I get the full breakdown...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:50 am 
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AT, LT, real aerobic work, base km....

So much old school terms there. Not sure how training between 130-140 bpm will be useful for you depending on available time.

If you had your gas exchanges analysed you could have an idea of substrate utilization, interesting though of little value training wise.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:12 pm 
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devinci- yeah, as a new father, time is going to be the limiting factor. I'm also a big fan of just getting out and smashing it for an hour some times when I can. Not very scientific, but it gets you used to sprinting out of corners and listening to your body to know when you can push harder and when you can't. I've played a lot of sport over the years, so my understanding of my body is probably a good bit better than your usual 5 years riding cyclist.

Actually, the most important part of the testing for me was just to get some confirmation of a lot of my own ideas about my engine, training etc which I did. It's good to know you're thinking about things the right way, especially where you feel you differ from the usual advice that's in print.

edit- the part which I'm most intersted in seeing is getting a fuller picture of my capabilities and where I may be strong or weaker than those that I'm probably riding against and how to use those strengths/weaknesses in a race situation etc.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:50 pm 
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Location: Geneva
Ok, got the data back...


Max HR = 192
OBLA (onset blood lactate accumulation) HR = 156 (this also notes the bottom range of threshold?)
Exact Threshold = 165 bpm, however RER (Respiratory exchange Ratio) still didn't go above 1.01 until 169 bpm and still stayed only at 1.02 until 176 bpm, my RER topped out at 1.50, apparently Mathew Pinsett pulled like a 3.0 which is insane

Z2 = 114-139
Z3 = 140-155
Z4 = 156-169
Z5 = 170-180
Z6 = 181-192

weight = 77 kgs (75 in summer)
height = 180cm
VO2 max = 5,430 mL/min, 70.8/kg


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:33 pm 
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The Zones you were given are correct and based off Anaerobic threshold. I am not sure what way the RER is being given, if zone 2 is 70% fat and 30% carb not too bad. But if the ratio is 70% carb and 30% fat, then you need to spend a lot of time in zone 2 working on metabolic efficiency. I would look into Bob Seebohar's work, he is the dietician for the Olympic team.

http://www.fuel4mance.com/


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Location: Geneva
My fat burning was still a pretty good percentage all the way through my zone2. @125 it's 68% fat and @140 it's still 40% fat. RER is the CO2/O2 so it's Lactic Threshold, but was just saying that mine stays at only 1.01 for a while past as well.

Thanks for the link, will check it out. Being a relatively 'big' cyclist means my metabolic cost is pretty high, need to reduce that over time.


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Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:51 pm 


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