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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:22 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:22 pm
Posts: 363
Location: Bristol uk
I find it hard to know which is fake and real from photos.
I would love to see one in the flesh to see the difference,if any.

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:22 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:03 am
Posts: 162
Location: Queensland Australia
markyboy wrote:
I find it hard to know which is fake and real from photos.
I would love to see one in the flesh to see the difference,if any.


This fake has internal cables, where as the genuine Pina has only the rear brake routed internally, atleast on the models that I have seen? If you look closely, there are no cables running under the frame, it is all internal.
austke

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:09 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 628
Tenlegs wrote:
Define replica, I see a fake.
Could you sell other fake goods on ebay just by labelling them 'replicas'


I have seen some alibaba but also some eBay links within this one.

eBay is behaving as being ethical with so many policies stored.
I think it is a waste of time to report something to eBay. This is just for the show.

eBay is a stock listed company and just profit oriented like others.
Today eBay is a safe heaven for fakes, rip-offs and moreover stolen goods.

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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:49 pm
Posts: 1576
Location: Near Horgen, Switzerland
Regarding which is real / which is fake, let me spell it out. A real dogma will have the following characteristics:

Dogma 60.1
- External cable guides (apart from a small number of special edition Di2 only bikes)
- Large chunky rounded plastic cable guide under the bb. May be pinkish red or black
- Pinarello bar code above the cable guide
- 4 rivets holding braze on FD holder
- Carbon dropouts
- Aero shaped seat post
- Pinarello branded seat post collar and headset cap
- 60.1 paint design with Dogma 60.1 written on it throughout, and precisely positioned paint darts
- 99% of bikes will have standard colours, a few may have custom "My way" colours, but even these will use the 60.1 Dogma paint scheme.
- Some of the paint schemes use a distinctive diamond sparkle paint. Fakes don't have the same sparkle
- Pinarello brand on the down tube is positioned 2/3 of the way up the down tube with a twist so that the writing almost meets on the top of the downtube where downtube shift levers would be
- Very fine carbon weave visible on most paint schemes
- Asymmetric frame, with more ribs on the drive side of the down tube etc.
- Standard road fork (no tail) with tapering shaft and 1.25" lower bearing with standard deep groove bearing
- Italian bb thread

Dogma 60.2
As above but:
- Internal cable guides with cable guide inset into a pocket in the frame, or Di2 holes and a cover for the cable guide pocket
- 60.2 paint scheme and Dogma 60.2 written on it throughout
- Still asymmetric frame, but with fewer ribs
- Fork with a distinctive "tail" keyed into the frame for aerodynamics and 1.5" lower bearing with standard deep groove bearing

Dogma 60.5
As 60.2 but
- Cable port covers allowing Di2 or mechanical groupsets
- Optional lump of metal to hang Campag battery case from the bottom bracket
- 60.5 paint scheme and Dogma 60.5 Think 2 written on it throughout
- Fork with a distinctive "tail" keyed into the frame for aerodynamics and 1.5" lower bearing with angular contact bearing
- Still an Italian bb thread - press fit was only on photo models

To spot a fake you're looking for is consistency across the elements, with all elements above present. The first generation of fake Dogma 60.1 fakes had round seat posts, so were easy to spot. Now the fakers have added aero seat posts and a few have developed a bad copy of the "tail" on the Dogma 2's fork, meaning you do need to look a bit harder to get things right.

If you look at the "Prince of Spain" bike earlier in the thread you can spot it's a fake from a mile off as it has an aero seat post suggesting Dogma, but writing on the seat tube (and the paint job) says Prince. A bit more subtly the layout of the white darts on the fork isn't quite right, but the Pinarello down tube logo is pretty good. Then with better pictures you would probably see that the frame is symmetrical, uses two rivets not 4 for the FD, incorrect cable guide, barcode if it exists uses wrong font, 30K weave carbon....

If you wanted to make a convincing fraud, the easiest DIY way would be to get a fake frame with external cable routing or Di2 holes and get it painted in a Dogma 60.1 custom colour scheme which doesn't use the sparkle paint and completely covers the frame. Then add a real headset cap, cable guide and seat clamp from ebay. Only giveaways then would be the 4-rivet FD hanger, lack of asymmetry, the fork bearing design and lack of barcodes.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:33 am
Posts: 86
mrfish wrote:
Regarding which is real / which is fake, let me spell it out. A real dogma will have the following characteristics:

Dogma 60.1
- 99% of bikes will have standard colours, a few may have custom "My way" colours, but even these will use the 60.1 Dogma paint scheme.
- Some All of the paint schemes (except BoB) use a distinctive diamond sparkle paint. Fakes don't have the same sparkle
- Pinarello brand on the down tube is positioned 2/3 of the way up the down tube with a twist so that the writing almost meets on the top of the downtube where downtube shift levers would be (Negative - that was the Prince - Dogma 60.1 paint sit flush on the sides of the tubes, with Pinarello on the right downtube, Dogma 60.1 on the left, and the converse on the seat tube
Qui est... in specific font, which the fakes get notoriously worng, the font on fakes is poor and looks stencilled in Arial
.

Dogma 60.2 (Suppose you mean Dogma2)

Dogma 65.1 Think 2



Just a quick update, no harm intended. Comment in Italics.


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 Post subject: Re: Rip off dogma
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:02 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:03 am
Posts: 162
Location: Queensland Australia
mrfish wrote:
Regarding which is real / which is fake, let me spell it out. A real dogma will have the following characteristics:

Dogma 60.1
- External cable guides (apart from a small number of special edition Di2 only bikes)
- Large chunky rounded plastic cable guide under the bb. May be pinkish red or black
- Pinarello bar code above the cable guide
- 4 rivets holding braze on FD holder
- Carbon dropouts
- Aero shaped seat post
- Pinarello branded seat post collar and headset cap
- 60.1 paint design with Dogma 60.1 written on it throughout, and precisely positioned paint darts
- 99% of bikes will have standard colours, a few may have custom "My way" colours, but even these will use the 60.1 Dogma paint scheme.
- Some of the paint schemes use a distinctive diamond sparkle paint. Fakes don't have the same sparkle
- Pinarello brand on the down tube is positioned 2/3 of the way up the down tube with a twist so that the writing almost meets on the top of the downtube where downtube shift levers would be
- Very fine carbon weave visible on most paint schemes
- Asymmetric frame, with more ribs on the drive side of the down tube etc.
- Standard road fork (no tail) with tapering shaft and 1.25" lower bearing with standard deep groove bearing
- Italian bb thread

Dogma 60.2
As above but:
- Internal cable guides with cable guide inset into a pocket in the frame, or Di2 holes and a cover for the cable guide pocket
- 60.2 paint scheme and Dogma 60.2 written on it throughout
- Still asymmetric frame, but with fewer ribs
- Fork with a distinctive "tail" keyed into the frame for aerodynamics and 1.5" lower bearing with standard deep groove bearing

Dogma 60.5
As 60.2 but
- Cable port covers allowing Di2 or mechanical groupsets
- Optional lump of metal to hang Campag battery case from the bottom bracket
- 60.5 paint scheme and Dogma 60.5 Think 2 written on it throughout
- Fork with a distinctive "tail" keyed into the frame for aerodynamics and 1.5" lower bearing with angular contact bearing
- Still an Italian bb thread - press fit was only on photo models

To spot a fake you're looking for is consistency across the elements, with all elements above present. The first generation of fake Dogma 60.1 fakes had round seat posts, so were easy to spot. Now the fakers have added aero seat posts and a few have developed a bad copy of the "tail" on the Dogma 2's fork, meaning you do need to look a bit harder to get things right.

If you look at the "Prince of Spain" bike earlier in the thread you can spot it's a fake from a mile off as it has an aero seat post suggesting Dogma, but writing on the seat tube (and the paint job) says Prince. A bit more subtly the layout of the white darts on the fork isn't quite right, but the Pinarello down tube logo is pretty good. Then with better pictures you would probably see that the frame is symmetrical, uses two rivets not 4 for the FD, incorrect cable guide, barcode if it exists uses wrong font, 30K weave carbon....

If you wanted to make a convincing fraud, the easiest DIY way would be to get a fake frame with external cable routing or Di2 holes and get it painted in a Dogma 60.1 custom colour scheme which doesn't use the sparkle paint and completely covers the frame. Then add a real headset cap, cable guide and seat clamp from ebay. Only giveaways then would be the 4-rivet FD hanger, lack of asymmetry, the fork bearing design and lack of barcodes.



Thanks Mrfish,
Very handy info, I didnt know the name for the darts, but yes ur right. The chainstay darts dont line up on it either, I had noticed.

Cheers austke

_________________
2013 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0, 6.92kg
2013 Giant Defy Composite 2 M, 8.5kg - Wife's
Azzurro Torino 8.55g
Fuji 650 10.8kg
Miele Lupa Triple Tandem 38,89kg


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