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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:36 am 
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Just noticed this article on bike radar (apologies if already posted)- a very resourceful cyclist has set up a testing rig in his basement to test friction of various bike components: http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/friction-facts-separating-fact-from-fiction-35694/

As someone who has thought friction was more important than is often claimed, I found this pretty interesting. So far he has tested chains, chain lubes, pedals, and jockey wheels with some fairly large differences reported. Hubs, bbs, etc, next.

Will we finally have an independent assessment of whether ceramic bearings are worth it??


His website is below for those interested.
http://www.friction-facts.com/


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:25 am 
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Oh dear,he wants high coinage for his facts....Is this in the spirit of this site? Methinks not.


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Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:25 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:44 am 
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Well, he doesn't use adverts as income. He has to get some from somewhere right ?

And .. nobody sponsors his components nor his equipment. He's not targeting the everyday consumer like most of us on WW but more of people who need hard data.

... what he's pricing is really small change. Some information sites charge US$10/set of information which their site members have filled up and they merely compiled ! Try some of the government bureau depositories for information on businesses and see what I mean ...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:41 pm 
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re: in the spirit of this site? I thought so- reducing friction, just like weight or wind resistance, is about getting the most from your bike.

Curiosity just got the better of me- just bought the reports.

Having just had a quick flip through, methods look legit- multiple components tested to provide sample based estimate and standard deviations are reported. Chains tested with factory and then generic lube for example- all under 250W load. Some interesting results which i wont go in to given its his IP. Seems not all high end components are equal in terms of friction though most differences are not in the same order of magnitude as aero gains (or at least as claimed aero gains).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:55 pm 
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Sounds a very interesting piece of work for those at the top level of the sport or competing in time trials. If I were advising Team Sky I would be looking into this area.

@Howler,

Without disclosing what parts I would need, what total benefit could I gain by moving from a full Dura Ace bike to a top quartile system? (i.e. best bearings, jockey wheels, pedals, bottom bracket)? Is it 1W, 5W or 10W?

Would these parts continue to perform well over their lifespan?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Hi,

Up to 10W savings for a chain and its lubricant is an impressive number to say the least. :shock:
I expect similar losses in rear wheels' freehubs, one of my pet peeves and invariably neglected by the bike industry at large....

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:27 pm 
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The 10W difference in chains is a bit misleading. If you look at the graphs, you can only get to a 10W difference by comparing the gummiest new chain against the best run-in re lubed chain. The more interesting fact is that there is no difference between brand X and brand Y chains if you lube them with light oil, max resistance just under 7W, minimum resistance 6.4W. I didn't see error bands on the chart, but I'd be surprised if that's a significant difference.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:51 pm 
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I don't see where he says how long the UltraFast chain retains its ultrafast performance. Per http://www.friction-facts.com/ultrafast ... o-dura-ace , "When re-lubing your UltraFast chain, we suggest a 'dry' type high-PTFE-content or wax-based chain lubricant.". How long until relubing is necessary? How much does friction increase prior to relubing? How fast is the chain after relubing vs. when delivered as an UltraFast chain?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Finally! I've long been a proponent of quantifying friction;

search.php?keywords=friction&terms=all&author=bridgeman&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Surprised at how little interest there is in this topic. There are serious gains to be made in this discipline with the right understanding.

The site doesn't reveal the testing methods so it will be interesting to learn if they are applying all force vectors and durations to the various systems.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:52 pm 
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In his recent book Graham Obree suggests installing a Scottoiler on one's bike to always maintain sufficient lubrication of the chain and to reduce drivetrain loss....

Although a properly cleaned and lubed chain may be important, I won't go ahead and install a pump/lube system on my bike ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:05 pm 
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Before someone forks over money for this (oh, wait...) - I did not see any list of components on his/her website.

My honest question is this: How is this of any authority when the sample size is small?

For example: did he/she test Yaban Chains? What about KMC's top offerings? What about pulley wheels - did he/she cover all manufacturers? (I doubt he/she did. Spend a week on this forum and I'm sure you'll be familiar with more brands and models of chainrings than may have been tested. That's just chainrings.) In the "lubes" testing - what about lubes that are not available in the tester's market? There are lubes that are sold in Europe but not in North America, for example. Were those tested?

EDIT: further reading, found that tester did test multiple components per manufacturer-model combos, however I still believe that the offerings are still limited.

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Last edited by prendrefeu on Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:25 pm 
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True friction testing, that encompasses ALL parameters of a bicycle system is fairly complex. Simple fixtures with limited load vectors, or loads that are only normal to the axis of rotation will not reveal all relevant data. This is just tip of the iceberg.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:41 pm 
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+100

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Hi,

Quote:
Finally! I've long been a proponent of quantifying friction;


Same here.
I've "optimized" my bikes for as low as possible friction many years ago already but without accurate measurements it's sometimes hard to tell by "feel" alone.
One thing's for sure; it's hard to go back to a "standard" bike and not notice the difference in bearing drag.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:00 pm 
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howler wrote:
re: in the spirit of this site? I thought so- reducing friction, just like weight or wind resistance, is about getting the most from your bike.

Curiosity just got the better of me- just bought the reports.

Having just had a quick flip through, methods look legit- multiple components tested to provide sample based estimate and standard deviations are reported. Chains tested with factory and then generic lube for example- all under 250W load. Some interesting results which i wont go in to given its his IP. Seems not all high end components are equal in terms of friction though most differences are not in the same order of magnitude as aero gains (or at least as claimed aero gains).


Where does he put Chorus and Super Record?


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Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:00 pm 


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