The wheelbuilding thread

Everything about building wheels, glueing tubs, etc.
User avatar
MattSoutherden
Posts: 1377
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:22 pm
Location: London

by MattSoutherden

Anyone have a recommendation for lacing pattern for a 32h powertap training wheel?

It was previously laced 3x to a velocity a23 rim, but the difference in tension side-to-side is huge. Maybe the original Saris build was rubbish, but I think the tension was part of the reason I had to true it so often. I did release and re-tension at one point, which seemed to help.

It will be laced to a 32h h plus son archetype rim.

Any patterns that will give a solid training build with better tension?

Cheers,
Matt.
Snacking on carrot sticks - Where did it all go so wrong?
-
Finsbury Park CC

by Weenie


User avatar
Zen Cyclery
Shop Owner
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:27 am
Location: McCall, ID
Contact:

by Zen Cyclery

MattSoutherden wrote:Anyone have a recommendation for lacing pattern for a 32h powertap training wheel?

It was previously laced 3x to a velocity a23 rim, but the difference in tension side-to-side is huge. Maybe the original Saris build was rubbish, but I think the tension was part of the reason I had to true it so often. I did release and re-tension at one point, which seemed to help.

It will be laced to a 32h h plus son archetype rim.

Any patterns that will give a solid training build with better tension?

Cheers,
Matt.


Well, I think that 1x DS, 3x NDS may be a good way to go on this one. Powertap says 1x voids the warranty, but many builders in the wheelbuilding world have been challenging this. If you lace the 1X DS heads in (elbows out), it will effectively move the flange out a bit which will help to stiffen the wheel up.

Keep in mind though, trying to lace a stiff Powertrap is viewed as oxymoronic by many. It really is like polishing a turd simply because the flange spacing is so, so poor.

User avatar
Zen Cyclery
Shop Owner
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:27 am
Location: McCall, ID
Contact:

by Zen Cyclery

CaptainP wrote:Sounds great!

So basically i can understand that there is not a HUGE difference in chosing radial/x2 vs. x2/x2 in the rear wheel, it is more a preference thing.

What about nipples - alu or brass? Is alu such a big pain to use (maintain)? I know it's been discussed before, but simply can't decide for this WW budget wheelset for summer use.


Assuming that the hub your using has a sufficiently rigid hubshell, than radial NDS would be just fine.

Concerning the nips, alloy are fine if you have some experience building and truing wheels. i remember when I first started though that I tended to strip out alloy nips, and building with brass was a breeze.
If weight is a big concern, then go brass on the rear drive side and alloy every where else. This will be a good balance of weight and strength.

bm0p700f
in the industry
Posts: 3374
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Contact:

by bm0p700f

Captain P I think you misunderstood me. There is little difference in doing radial vs 2x on the front wheel. The difference between radial and 2x on the rear is important. I persoanlly would not use radial spoking on the rear at all I see no need. If there is a need I would choose a different hub rim combination. Sorry for the misunderstanding. So go radial on the front if you want to but your hub shell would have to very stiff to use radial on the rear. I don't think those Dati hubs are in that catagory.

As for Alu nipples they will seize eventually but how long that will take will depend on the conditions you ride in. If you CX-ray spokes they come with alloy nipples anyway so little choice there. A seized nipple is not an issue unless the wheel needs truing. Also a seized nipple can't loose tension. So there advantages of sorts.

I have yet to strip an alloy nipple but I have only tried the Sapim ones and would not exceed 1200N with them.

User avatar
MattSoutherden
Posts: 1377
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:22 pm
Location: London

by MattSoutherden

Zen Cyclery wrote:Well, I think that 1x DS, 3x NDS may be a good way to go on this one. Powertap says 1x voids the warranty, but many builders in the wheelbuilding world have been challenging this. If you lace the 1X DS heads in (elbows out), it will effectively move the flange out a bit which will help to stiffen the wheel up.

Keep in mind though, trying to lace a stiff Powertrap is viewed as oxymoronic by many. It really is like polishing a turd simply because the flange spacing is so, so poor.


Thanks, Zen. :)

Is there anything to be said for lacing the drive and non drive side with different gauge spokes?
Snacking on carrot sticks - Where did it all go so wrong?
-
Finsbury Park CC

petromyzon
Posts: 258
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

There is a new offset A23 on the way which will help you get the tensions more even.
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/10/07/int ... m-profile/

To make a stiffer wheel you will need to try the 1x driveside trick (but you might need to use thinner bladed spokes and overall gain would be minimal) or use chunkier spokes (although people say anything thicker than a DT Comp makes for a dead feeling wheel).

I had a well-built PT wheel that held it's tension nicely. It's not as stiff as I would like for a 32 spoker but it's not unusable.

bm0p700f
in the industry
Posts: 3374
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Contact:

by bm0p700f

I normally use Race spokes DS and Lasers NDS unless the rider is very heavy or it is a rear wheel for touring in which case single butted drive side and Race NDS. It should make the wheel more durable beacuse under load of the rider or when going over lumps and bumps the wheel will deform radially. NDS spokes in this case can loose tension but thin gauage spokes do stretch alot so require more radial deformation of the rim to completly loose tension. It's when spokes loose tension completley there life is shortened. It turns out that for wheels built with alu alloy rims and stainless steel spokes the radial stiffnes of the rim is not dependent on the number of spokes or their guage because steel is so much stiffer than the alloy rim. Consider two compression springs linked end to end one 10x stiffer than the other. If a load is placed on them the stiff spring barely changes length but the less stiff changes alot.

So while lateral stiffness is reduced a bit (to compensate pick a stiffer rim, use more spokes or use a hub with bigger NDS flange spacing) radial stiffness is not effected in a measurable way and therefore the wheel will be more stable and durable. That's the theory anyway.

bm0p700f
in the industry
Posts: 3374
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Contact:

by bm0p700f

The A23 OC is rim that is going to be very useful for 11 speed wheels.

User avatar
Zen Cyclery
Shop Owner
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:27 am
Location: McCall, ID
Contact:

by Zen Cyclery

MattSoutherden wrote:
Thanks, Zen. :)

Is there anything to be said for lacing the drive and non drive side with different gauge spokes?


No problem.

Regarding spokes, I have heard tons of different opinions on this. Some swear by going with a lighter spoke on the NDS, however for all practical purposes, I like doing the same spokes all around.
All things the same, the ride quality is going to be the same between the two.

CaptainP
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:02 am
Location: Danmark
Contact:

by CaptainP

bm0p700f wrote:Captain P I think you misunderstood me. There is little difference in doing radial vs 2x on the front wheel. The difference between radial and 2x on the rear is important. I persoanlly would not use radial spoking on the rear at all I see no need. If there is a need I would choose a different hub rim combination. Sorry for the misunderstanding. So go radial on the front if you want to but your hub shell would have to very stiff to use radial on the rear. I don't think those Dati hubs are in that catagory.

As for Alu nipples they will seize eventually but how long that will take will depend on the conditions you ride in. If you CX-ray spokes they come with alloy nipples anyway so little choice there. A seized nipple is not an issue unless the wheel needs truing. Also a seized nipple can't loose tension. So there advantages of sorts.

I have yet to strip an alloy nipple but I have only tried the Sapim ones and would not exceed 1200N with them.


Thank you. I was told to avoid radial on the front because of the hub. So now i'll just go x2 all over and brass nipples in the rear ds and alu nipples in the rest of the wheelset. Thank you again.

bm0p700f
in the industry
Posts: 3374
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Contact:

by bm0p700f

Zen My comments are based on theory only. I use the spoking I outlined manily beause it saves weight and should help NDS spoke life in theory. I agree with you than using the same spokes all round works very well, rides the same and unless some does empirical testing comparing spoke life then we will never know if thinner spokes NDS actually helps or not.

User avatar
Zen Cyclery
Shop Owner
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:27 am
Location: McCall, ID
Contact:

by Zen Cyclery

bm0p700f wrote:Zen My comments are based on theory only. I use the spoking I outlined manily beause it saves weight and should help NDS spoke life in theory. I agree with you than using the same spokes all round works very well, rides the same and unless some does empirical testing comparing spoke life then we will never know if thinner spokes NDS actually helps or not.


I would like to see some testing done on this. I find your theory intriguing and I can definitely see where you are coming from on this one.

If only I had a consistent way to measure deflection!!

djay001
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:59 pm

by djay001

eric wrote:What make were your black ebay hubs? Do the spoke heads fit into a countersink on the hub? If so, and the elbow is not supported, the elbow may fatigue and break after some miles. I have a wheel (on a BHS UL66 front) that's doing that. I'm going to build its replacement 1x heads in to compensate.

The hub i take for my build are sell on ebay as uniQ 260g hub (search this term on ebay an you will find them easily), and yes the spoke heads fit into a countersink, but normaly this countersink are just made for that ....no?

I have read your problem with the front radial wheel, this is strange because most of the radial laced front wheel are with the heads out, and don't have problem like you, i wish than mine is going to be fine.

djay001
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:59 pm

by djay001

eric wrote:I like the wider spacing of the BHS hubs vs Rotaz more than I dislike the DS flange spacing. The Rotaz is pretty narrow over all, and my experience with equally narrow AC hubs is they make a laterally flexy wheel. That's not good for reliability for me. Someone else who doesn't stand on climbs so much might be ok with the narrow flange hub.

The BHS 218 hub has slightly better DS flange spacing and a little less on the NDS than the 211.

Djay I'd recommend 28/32 for your friend. Most women I know don't like to deal with broken spokes on the road and doing a field re-truing of the wheel. The C472 rim looks good, I'm building a set.


Do you think that 28/32, sapim laser front, NDS and race DS with brass nipples everywhere would be fine?

djay001 wrote:I'm also planning a build for a an other friend.

I want to hear feedback from you to see what could be the best build for her.

She is at 240 pounds, i can say that she is a powerfull girl.
She do about 2000miles a years, for most, this is some club ride of about 20-40 miles.
She want something durable, and confortable.
She was on shimano RS-20 for the last 2000 Miles she did and the wheel are just going in really bad condition now.

I'm checking to get her a good wheelset on a little budget, so for now i'm sticking with BHS part.

I thought to build her a BHS C472w rim with the new BHS SL 218 rear hub, over the SL211 for the bigger bearing and beter flange spacing and for the front i'm thinking of SLF85W, big bearing and large flange spacing too.

Now, for the spoke, can a 24/28 spoke be ok? Sapim Race everywhere?
Or maybe can i go with 28/32, laser with race DS?

Sorry for the repost of this message, but sometime this thread are going fast an maybe someone else can comment. Thanks

by Weenie


bm0p700f
in the industry
Posts: 3374
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
Contact:

by bm0p700f

If its a cray weather wheel for crappy winter roads, more spokes is always better than less.

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post