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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:16 pm 
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I'm about to build a wheelset Dati, Kinlin XR200, CX-ray. I asked BHS what lacing they would recommend and was told to go x2 in the front and both sides on the rear, so basically x2 allaround.

I'm 150-155lbs and will build with 24/28 spokes. What kind of lacing would you recommend?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:51 pm 
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2x as well for no other reason I prfer it over radial lacing on the front. The rear can be 2x or 3x. I prefer 2x for 28 spoke wheels and it is ever so slight stiffer radially than 3x in theory at least.

I will be doing my XR-200 28F/28R 2x as well.

nickd01
I was thinking about ordering the same rims as well. They look good on paper at least. I would stick to 20F/24R as well. Any of the hubs you suggest would be good but Royce hubs are a bit heavy. CK hubs R45's are nice and light and excellent. I just can't afford them yet.

I would do the CK R45 hubs, Focus T24 rims and Sapim CX-ray spokes with Sapim alloy nipples that match the colour oif the hubs. Front can be radial and rear 2x. I want to build those now.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Sounds great!

So basically i can understand that there is not a HUGE difference in chosing radial/x2 vs. x2/x2 in the rear wheel, it is more a preference thing.

What about nipples - alu or brass? Is alu such a big pain to use (maintain)? I know it's been discussed before, but simply can't decide for this WW budget wheelset for summer use.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Anyone have a recommendation for lacing pattern for a 32h powertap training wheel?

It was previously laced 3x to a velocity a23 rim, but the difference in tension side-to-side is huge. Maybe the original Saris build was rubbish, but I think the tension was part of the reason I had to true it so often. I did release and re-tension at one point, which seemed to help.

It will be laced to a 32h h plus son archetype rim.

Any patterns that will give a solid training build with better tension?

Cheers,
Matt.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:14 am 
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MattSoutherden wrote:
Anyone have a recommendation for lacing pattern for a 32h powertap training wheel?

It was previously laced 3x to a velocity a23 rim, but the difference in tension side-to-side is huge. Maybe the original Saris build was rubbish, but I think the tension was part of the reason I had to true it so often. I did release and re-tension at one point, which seemed to help.

It will be laced to a 32h h plus son archetype rim.

Any patterns that will give a solid training build with better tension?

Cheers,
Matt.


Well, I think that 1x DS, 3x NDS may be a good way to go on this one. Powertap says 1x voids the warranty, but many builders in the wheelbuilding world have been challenging this. If you lace the 1X DS heads in (elbows out), it will effectively move the flange out a bit which will help to stiffen the wheel up.

Keep in mind though, trying to lace a stiff Powertrap is viewed as oxymoronic by many. It really is like polishing a turd simply because the flange spacing is so, so poor.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:19 am 
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CaptainP wrote:
Sounds great!

So basically i can understand that there is not a HUGE difference in chosing radial/x2 vs. x2/x2 in the rear wheel, it is more a preference thing.

What about nipples - alu or brass? Is alu such a big pain to use (maintain)? I know it's been discussed before, but simply can't decide for this WW budget wheelset for summer use.


Assuming that the hub your using has a sufficiently rigid hubshell, than radial NDS would be just fine.

Concerning the nips, alloy are fine if you have some experience building and truing wheels. i remember when I first started though that I tended to strip out alloy nips, and building with brass was a breeze.
If weight is a big concern, then go brass on the rear drive side and alloy every where else. This will be a good balance of weight and strength.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Captain P I think you misunderstood me. There is little difference in doing radial vs 2x on the front wheel. The difference between radial and 2x on the rear is important. I persoanlly would not use radial spoking on the rear at all I see no need. If there is a need I would choose a different hub rim combination. Sorry for the misunderstanding. So go radial on the front if you want to but your hub shell would have to very stiff to use radial on the rear. I don't think those Dati hubs are in that catagory.

As for Alu nipples they will seize eventually but how long that will take will depend on the conditions you ride in. If you CX-ray spokes they come with alloy nipples anyway so little choice there. A seized nipple is not an issue unless the wheel needs truing. Also a seized nipple can't loose tension. So there advantages of sorts.

I have yet to strip an alloy nipple but I have only tried the Sapim ones and would not exceed 1200N with them.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:18 pm 
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Zen Cyclery wrote:
Well, I think that 1x DS, 3x NDS may be a good way to go on this one. Powertap says 1x voids the warranty, but many builders in the wheelbuilding world have been challenging this. If you lace the 1X DS heads in (elbows out), it will effectively move the flange out a bit which will help to stiffen the wheel up.

Keep in mind though, trying to lace a stiff Powertrap is viewed as oxymoronic by many. It really is like polishing a turd simply because the flange spacing is so, so poor.


Thanks, Zen. :)

Is there anything to be said for lacing the drive and non drive side with different gauge spokes?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:31 pm 
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There is a new offset A23 on the way which will help you get the tensions more even.
http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/10/07/int ... m-profile/

To make a stiffer wheel you will need to try the 1x driveside trick (but you might need to use thinner bladed spokes and overall gain would be minimal) or use chunkier spokes (although people say anything thicker than a DT Comp makes for a dead feeling wheel).

I had a well-built PT wheel that held it's tension nicely. It's not as stiff as I would like for a 32 spoker but it's not unusable.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:14 pm 
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I normally use Race spokes DS and Lasers NDS unless the rider is very heavy or it is a rear wheel for touring in which case single butted drive side and Race NDS. It should make the wheel more durable beacuse under load of the rider or when going over lumps and bumps the wheel will deform radially. NDS spokes in this case can loose tension but thin gauage spokes do stretch alot so require more radial deformation of the rim to completly loose tension. It's when spokes loose tension completley there life is shortened. It turns out that for wheels built with alu alloy rims and stainless steel spokes the radial stiffnes of the rim is not dependent on the number of spokes or their guage because steel is so much stiffer than the alloy rim. Consider two compression springs linked end to end one 10x stiffer than the other. If a load is placed on them the stiff spring barely changes length but the less stiff changes alot.

So while lateral stiffness is reduced a bit (to compensate pick a stiffer rim, use more spokes or use a hub with bigger NDS flange spacing) radial stiffness is not effected in a measurable way and therefore the wheel will be more stable and durable. That's the theory anyway.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:17 pm 
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The A23 OC is rim that is going to be very useful for 11 speed wheels.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:19 pm 
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MattSoutherden wrote:

Thanks, Zen. :)

Is there anything to be said for lacing the drive and non drive side with different gauge spokes?


No problem.

Regarding spokes, I have heard tons of different opinions on this. Some swear by going with a lighter spoke on the NDS, however for all practical purposes, I like doing the same spokes all around.
All things the same, the ride quality is going to be the same between the two.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:28 am 
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bm0p700f wrote:
Captain P I think you misunderstood me. There is little difference in doing radial vs 2x on the front wheel. The difference between radial and 2x on the rear is important. I persoanlly would not use radial spoking on the rear at all I see no need. If there is a need I would choose a different hub rim combination. Sorry for the misunderstanding. So go radial on the front if you want to but your hub shell would have to very stiff to use radial on the rear. I don't think those Dati hubs are in that catagory.

As for Alu nipples they will seize eventually but how long that will take will depend on the conditions you ride in. If you CX-ray spokes they come with alloy nipples anyway so little choice there. A seized nipple is not an issue unless the wheel needs truing. Also a seized nipple can't loose tension. So there advantages of sorts.

I have yet to strip an alloy nipple but I have only tried the Sapim ones and would not exceed 1200N with them.


Thank you. I was told to avoid radial on the front because of the hub. So now i'll just go x2 all over and brass nipples in the rear ds and alu nipples in the rest of the wheelset. Thank you again.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Zen My comments are based on theory only. I use the spoking I outlined manily beause it saves weight and should help NDS spoke life in theory. I agree with you than using the same spokes all round works very well, rides the same and unless some does empirical testing comparing spoke life then we will never know if thinner spokes NDS actually helps or not.

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Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:00 pm 


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:12 pm 
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bm0p700f wrote:
Zen My comments are based on theory only. I use the spoking I outlined manily beause it saves weight and should help NDS spoke life in theory. I agree with you than using the same spokes all round works very well, rides the same and unless some does empirical testing comparing spoke life then we will never know if thinner spokes NDS actually helps or not.


I would like to see some testing done on this. I find your theory intriguing and I can definitely see where you are coming from on this one.

If only I had a consistent way to measure deflection!!

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