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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:03 am 
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All Campag 11 speed hubs have poor drive side flange spacings. Some are a little better than others but all will give a tension balance of less than 50%. So I think you may have misinterpreted my post that 2:1 lacing is used of compemsate for bad rim or hub design. Rims with a low max tension are not a bad design neither are 11 speed hubs but they may require for some riders different lacing patterns to achieve a stable wheel.

I think the BHS hubs have a drive side flange spacing of 16.5mm, for miche hubs it is 17mm, for Novatec F482/F582 hubs it is 18mm, for campag record hubs it around 16.5mm again.

Tune hubs have a drive side flange spacing of 19mm. flange diameter also changes bracing angle slightly. Tune hubs though are not 11 speed compatible (Unless some one is going to correct me).

fulcrum use 2:1 lacing because there wheels are casmpag 11 speed compatible and it allows them to shave a little weight of there rims as the nipple bed does not have to be so thick as DS spoke tensions can be lower.

NDS spoke tension with 2:1 lacing can 90% of the DS so the wheel can be tensioned like the front.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:19 am 
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So basically a 2:1 allows for a lower DS tension and a higher NDS tension than a traditional 24 drilling? Which will allow NDS spokes to be tensioned high enough for a certain build?

Generally speaking, is a wider Flange spacing better? or have I mis-read again?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:44 am 
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Honestly, this has all been asked and answered before in this very thread.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:51 pm 
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As a rule a wider flange spacing is better (increased bracing angle, more resistant to lateral movement) but as always it's slightly more complex than that.

Using a couple of examples -
BHS (Bitex) hubs have a poor DS flange spacing but quite a good NDS spacing. On the one hand the NDS spacing improves the lateral stiffness but on the other it reduces the tension you can put into the NDS spokes. Too much tension will just give you a poorly dished wheel (as the rim is dragged over to the NDS).

If you Google Goldtec Road Hub and have a look at that then you'll see something that's pretty much the opposite. Their design could clearly move the NDS flange out more but leaving it closer to the centre of the wheel allows you to put more tension in the NDS spokes.

You can work out the rough ratio using the NDS/DS flange spacings and with that and your DS max tension know roughly what NDS tension you'll be able to achieve.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:14 pm 
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It has all been answered before but the answers are generally over a number of posts so it not always easy for people who do not know the answers to put all the info together.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:32 pm 
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Location: Slovenia---that forest land
For lacing 2:1

I can tell it works really god with deeper rims - like this set
http://kavitec.blogspot.com/2012/10/kav ... c-380.html

Visual is that lacing more excotic, wheel is superstiff (for 90kg rider)
Pulling spokes at 3x cross has almost 90 degree angle on shaft.


But as mentioned maby it wont work well on lighter low profile rims like kinlin xr 200

Intresting debate about different hub geometriyes---keep going
But more angle (offset) at DS mean less effecient pulling spokes. If we look LEWracing hub (Rerynolds now) - why isnt there all hubs make with that kind of geometry - 3 flanges?

Has got anyone experiences with BARTIME hubs?
I hope soon get them and feel their performance

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:38 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
verycreativeusername wrote:
Generally speaking, is a wider Flange spacing better? or have I mis-read again?


It's a balance between having the NDS and DS tension less uneven vs overall lateral stiffness.

More NDS flange spacing increases stiffness at the cost of more uneven tension. More DS flange spacing is always good (on a typical derailleur hub) except when it keeps you from running the cassette you want because the spokes are hitting the derailleur.

How much lateral stiffness you need depends on your weight and riding style. For example I'm under 145 lbs but need a stiff wheel because of my riding style when standing on climbs, and the fact that I do a lot of that.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:40 am 
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Although 2:1 lacing has half the left spokes to control a lot of the lateral stiffness, wheel makers like campy/fulcrum gain much of that back by moving the left flange out even further. They end up with some spoke tension imbalance, still much less of a difference than with conventional lacing, but with a gain of lateral stiffness.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Exactly. To make 2:1 lacing work properly I think hubs designed for it are needed otherwise you do not maximise the adavnatges to be had.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:37 pm 
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Can someone advise on a build please?

I'm a 70kg rider, doing "sportives" and some Cat-4 racing based in the UK. I'm after some lighter tubular rims for "best" rides and maybe some Alpine rides next year.

So far I've only decided I'll probably get some 24 / 20 Focus Carbon F-R24-T Rims due to their price / weight.

As for hubs, I know I don't want Tune but am considering CK, Extralite and Royce currently. I know they're expensive but seems like they'll last a long time as well as being light. My questions are:

- Can I go down on the spoke count at all? Maybe a 20 / 18 setup? Or am I asking for trouble?
- What spokes would work well? I was going to go for CX-Rays as they seem a standard for this type of build
- What other hubs (Shimano based) should I consider?

Is this a "difficult" build? I'm not doing it myself, so I need to find a builder to help me out. As Legs11 is in retirement now (!) I'm going to have to find someone else to build these.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I'm pretty sure that Focus's rims are the same as FarSports. I have a set of FarSports wheels built on those rims. They're surprisingly stiff for 260g rims. However I think 18/20 would be pushing it too far. As it is I only use them for uphill races.

For road races with lots of climbing and also descending, I prefer more aero wheels. If there's no support or limited support, as it the case with most of our races, I use clinchers. Easier to change a tube than a tubular and the spare weighs less so the weight difference is not that great.

They should be just as easy as any other low profile carbon rim.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:36 pm 
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hi there i just show you my two last build

first one for my friend, 55yo man, 170 livres.
kinlin xr-270, BHS hub 24/28
front 2 x, laser and alu nipples
rear ds sapim race, brass, and NDS laser and alu, 2x

the build come at 1503 gr with the rim stripe installed
Image
Image

and my last build
xr-270 20/24,
260gr hub from ebay
laser radial front alu nipples
2x rear, ds race and brass nipples, NDS laser and alu nipples
with veloplug the weight is 1394gr
Image
Image

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:49 pm 
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I'm also planning a build for a an other friend.

I want to hear feedback from you to see what could be the best build for her.

She is at 240 pounds, i can say that she is a powerfull girl.
She do about 2000miles a years, for most, this is some club ride of about 20-40 miles.
She want something durable, and confortable.
She was on shimano RS-20 for the last 2000 Miles she did and the wheel are just going in really bad condition now.

I'm checking to get her a good wheelset on a little budget, so for now i'm sticking with BHS part.

I thought to build her a BHS C472w rim with the new BHS SL 218 rear hub, over the SL211 for the bigger bearing and beter flange spacing and for the front i'm thinking of SLF85W, big bearing and large flange spacing too.

Now, for the spoke, can a 24/28 spoke be ok? Sapim Race everywhere?
Or maybe can i go with 28/32, laser with race DS?

Thanks for the suggestion and comments.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:43 pm 
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At her weight, I would go for a rear hub with better geometry, and at least 32 spokes.
I'm thinking 105/Ultegra rear hub, if you're budget sensitive.

The rear Bitex BHS hubs are OK for the money, but to me they only make sense in a triplet lacing pattern.
If it has to be BHS go for the Rotaz instead.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:27 am 
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Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I like the wider spacing of the BHS hubs vs Rotaz more than I dislike the DS flange spacing. The Rotaz is pretty narrow over all, and my experience with equally narrow AC hubs is they make a laterally flexy wheel. That's not good for reliability for me. Someone else who doesn't stand on climbs so much might be ok with the narrow flange hub.

The BHS 218 hub has slightly better DS flange spacing and a little less on the NDS than the 211.

Djay I'd recommend 28/32 for your friend. Most women I know don't like to deal with broken spokes on the road and doing a field re-truing of the wheel. The C472 rim looks good, I'm building a set.

What make were your black ebay hubs? Do the spoke heads fit into a countersink on the hub? If so, and the elbow is not supported, the elbow may fatigue and break after some miles. I have a wheel (on a BHS UL66 front) that's doing that. I'm going to build its replacement 1x heads in to compensate.


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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:27 am 


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