HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Blog NEW Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:08 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 12:22 am
Posts: 598
TheRookie wrote:
Trek offer one of the best frame warranties available, they could bankrupt themselves if they produced shoddy frames, clearly a hand made frame can be good or really bad, I didn't say the trek frame would be Better though if you read what I put.....

The Treks and others use prepreg and an expensive mould, you could never have that with a one-off frame as the moulds are circa £5k each, plus going mass produced you have time and budget to do development builds and testing......


When you say 'one of the best warranties available' what do you mean? Do they honour every claim or...?

The reason why mass produced frames use an expensive mould is repeatability. The moulds could be made far cheaper for a one off. For example, our special projects engineer has built one time trial bike and two mountain bikes exactly how he wanted them and for far cheaper than he could buy a good carbon hardtail.

With mass produce frames you also have to bear in mind that efficiency is key, low cost manufacturing is paramount. With hand made frames, time can be taken and the budget is only limited by the customer.

TheRookie wrote:
But there is no reason for a carbon frame to be stiff, it can be made just as supple as any steel if that is what the maker wants, also as it has the highest internal hysteresis it's the best damped.....


very true, but the problem is how many manufacturers can you name that produce their own carbon tubes for frame building? There are more options available for alloys than there are for custom carbon.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:23 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Midlands, United Kingdom
stephen@fibre-lyte wrote:
very true, but the problem is how many manufacturers can you name that produce their own carbon tubes for frame building? There are more options available for alloys than there are for custom carbon.

I wouldn't buy a carbon frame made from tube, only a true monocoque...

The Trek Superfly has an obvious soft feel in the vertical direction, without feeling at all soft in the longitudinal.

_________________
Impoverished weight weenie wanna-be!
Budget 26" HT build viewtopic.php?f=10&t=110956


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:02 pm 


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:29 am 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 12:22 am
Posts: 598
Interesting comment. Why not? Probably the most well known high end carbon frames in the world (Colnago) have been manufactured from tubing for years.

True monocoque frames are very few and far between. they're usually sectional frames bonded together. I think you're also imagining that a monocoque frame will have all the fibres laminated in the direction that they're most required. It's a nice theory......


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:23 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Midlands, United Kingdom
Tubing was fine from the start, it only moved on from the tubing between metal end sections, but most the the MTB frames (this being an MTB forum) at the higher end are monocoque, such as the Scotts and Treks.

_________________
Impoverished weight weenie wanna-be!
Budget 26" HT build viewtopic.php?f=10&t=110956


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:21 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 12:22 am
Posts: 598
Why was tubing only fine 'from the start'. Tubed carbon frames still make for some very nice bikes. In fact, most frames still probably are, they just subtley hide it.

Where do you get your information about the frames? There's no mention that i can see on either Trek or Scotts website about the frames being moncoque and last year (I think) I saw pictures of the manufacture of a Scott Scale and it certainly wasn't monocoque.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:23 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Midlands, United Kingdom
Tubing was Ok when CF was a developing technology, we've moved on.

Some of the Scotts are definately monocoque, the latest treks likewise - based on the technical reviews where they discuss things like the numbers of bladders used, in fact the 1990's Trek y was as you couldn't have made that out of tube!

_________________
Impoverished weight weenie wanna-be!
Budget 26" HT build viewtopic.php?f=10&t=110956


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:05 am 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 12:22 am
Posts: 598
Sorry to tell you this but carbon tubing is still widely used, we haven't 'moved on'. Of course, there are other methods of moulding carbon. Bladders can be used anywhere that you want internal pressure to press carbon against an external mould. That doesn't necessarily mean monooque. Many moulded and shaped frames that aren't made from tubing are usually made from at least three separate pieces moulded individually then bonded together. Monocoque suggests a one piece construction.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:23 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Midlands, United Kingdom
OK, I accept that making sections and bonding isn't true monocoque, but on that basis no car is a monocoque either and I think that's a somewhat pedantic detail, but that's very different from gluing a bunch of tubes and then having a single layer of outer wrap!

Tubes correctly integrated can become part of a monocoque anyway, emphasis on correctly of course.

_________________
Impoverished weight weenie wanna-be!
Budget 26" HT build viewtopic.php?f=10&t=110956


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:35 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 12:22 am
Posts: 598
All I was trying to get across was there's no reason to judge a bike based on whether it uses tubes or moułded sections. You stated that you would never buy a frame made from tubes, only a monocoque. Now you're saying they could be one and the same :wink:

Back to the material choices, Columbus xcr steel seems to be a popular steel frame choice in the us yet my local frame builder has said that as far as he's aware it's a road tube set. Anyone know Amy different?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:31 pm
Posts: 459
I'm pretty sure I've seen one on one of the NAHBBS vids on youtube this year or last..could be IF.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:48 am
Posts: 1064
TheRookie wrote:
that's very different from gluing a bunch of tubes and then having a single layer of outer wrap!

Wow TheRookie - what fantastic knowledge you have of tube to tube construction :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:39 am 
Offline
in the industry

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:16 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Melbourne Australia
By definition a tubular based structure is not a monocoque, none of the so called "monocoques" are anything close to a real monocoque.

All the frames that I have sectioned are based on an assembly of pieces bonded or wrapped together.

_________________
Specialist Sports Technology
http://www.luescherteknik.com.au
Zerocompromise High Performance Footwear
http://www.zerocompromise.com.au
Carbon Bike Repairs
http://www.carbonbikerepair.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:53 am 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:33 pm
Posts: 713
Location: Luxembourg / Sweden
Most so called 'monocoque' frames have a segmented and bonded main structure. Some frames are marketed as monocoque but are really joined tubes at nodes.. Our Rolo main frame is a true monocoque with the chainstays/seatstays bonded.
If you are a light guy, say 70kg or lower, I feel you are best served with a highly reduced tube fillet braced steel bike!
(Why not carbon you ask? The answer is carbon manufacturers do not adapt the layup schedule to size. The smaller the size the stiffer the frame were it really should be the other way around.)

_________________
Technical Artisans


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:36 am 
Offline
Shop Owner

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 1976
Location: NoVA/DC
More companies are starting to adjust layups, overall dimensions, even lower headset bearing size, according to the size of bike. I feel this trend will really take hold.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:13 pm 
Offline
in the industry
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 12:22 am
Posts: 598
andy2 wrote:
If you are a light guy, say 70kg or lower, I feel you are best served with a highly reduced tube fillet braced steel bike!


78kg at the moment Andy :oops:


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:13 pm 


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: grouk, HaakonJohansen and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. Tour magazine frame weights: carbon, titanium, steel

[ Go to page: 1, 2 ]

in Road

djconnel

18

2399

Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:07 am

airwise View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Steel Frame Builders - NY/NJ/CT area

in Cycle Chat

meeRoad

11

620

Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:51 pm

fromtrektocolnago View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Chinese CF frame or custom steel?

in Cyclocross / Touring

dvincere

10

1322

Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:53 am

Marin View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Custom Stainless Steel Frame Builders

[ Go to page: 1, 2 ]

in Road

campbellrae

23

1640

Wed May 14, 2014 3:36 pm

Stolichnaya View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. custom steel frame advice for big rider

[ Go to page: 1, 2, 3 ]

in Road

Concept2

38

1609

Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:16 pm

Almonte View the latest post


It is currently Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:35 am

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB