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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:25 am 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

nayr497 wrote:
I was finally able to seat and mount a new latex tube. I was putting in a little air when trying to get the last section of tire installed when the tube shot out from between the tire and rim in a big bulge. Deflated some and was able to mount the tire. Pumped it up, left overnight, the tire was flat this morning.

Pulled the tube, inflated it and...ballooned in one spot. Is this the snake that swallowed the ball effect? Can I still use this tube or is buggered?

Have yet to find the hole, will have to do that first, if I can use it.

These are Michelin tubes. Thanks.


Latex inner tubes should not be inflated outside of a containing envelope (tyre). If you do you will always see what you witnessed as by their very nature they are impossible to manufacture with an even thickness, so they're always going to be "weak" spots where the layer of latex is somewhat thinner hence the bulging effect.

To find the hole in it you inflate it slightly without it bulging then do as you would for a butyl inner tube. If it's leaky you should repair it using a latex patch (rounded corners or they'll curl) cut out from an old inner tube.

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:52 am 
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Hi,

1415chris wrote:
There is a recent thread on Vreds tubes:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=107616" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The valve area seems to be very common failure for these tubes.
I experienced the blow out close to the valve as well.


Seems to me you're jumping the gun on Vredestein latex inner tubes. The topic is about failure modes of latex inner tubes in general.
With maybe an isolated exception these failures are all installation related not brand realted from what I can tell.

However with Vredestein latex inner tubes weighing about roughly 20 to 30g less than other brands some extra care before and during installation may be advisable.
In my longstanding experience with latex inner tubes they're still by far the best of their kind though.

Ciao, ;)

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Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:52 am 


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:12 pm 
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Location: Surrey UK
I know you are a big fun of Vreds :)
But no, I'm not jumping the gun. Because they are only latex tubes I've ever used, just sharing my experience. I had few of them, they were ridden with corsas from veloflex and vittoria only.
I put quite reasonably mileage on them and in most situations when I got the flat, the valve area was involved.
Speaking about installation, probably whatever in this topic can be said was applied in my case, or maybe I'm missing something....

Having said that, I shall still be riding them :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Fourthbook wrote:
I know Vredestein latex tubes are WW favorites, so I bought a batch last winter and have had about a 50% failure rate, despite obsessively careful installation. The blow-outs are always violent rips extending about 8" on either side of the stem. I'm nearly positive they aren't caused by pinching, pricking or twisting during installation, and never by puncture. Some have occurred several minutes after pumping up to pressure but before even being ridden. Very frustrating.

BTW: for those shopping for them, BikeTiresDirect currently has them in stock for $11.89: http://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/vredestein-race-latex-road-tube


So I have to ask - are you still using latex tubes? Vredestein?

I have to say that I'm ready to give up already and I've only had a few hours of riding on them...and more hours spent trying to install them, figuring out how to patch them, etc. Seems to not be worth it in my experience.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Location: Columbus, Ohio
Yes/no: I have a Vredestein on my rear wheel that was installed last winter. It's been great. However, the front now has a Continental Race Lite butyl tube b/c I had two Vred's blow out in 1 day (last Friday). But I still have 4 more Vreds on hand to use before I give up on them completely.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Ha! That's where I'm at too...my rear has a Michelin latex tube with a Veloflex tire. The front now has a Continental butyl tube.

I need to find a local pal who has an old latex tube so I can get some patches in order to patch the 2 punctured tubes I now have in my stock closet. Until then, I'm a 50/50 like you!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:44 pm 
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Latex inner tubes should not be inflated outside of a containing envelope (tyre). If you do you will always see what you witnessed as by their very nature they are impossible to manufacture with an even thickness, so they're always going to be "weak" spots where the layer of latex is somewhat thinner hence the bulging effect.

To find the hole in it you inflate it slightly without it bulging then do as you would for a butyl inner tube. If it's leaky you should repair it using a latex patch (rounded corners or they'll curl) cut out from an old inner tube.

Ciao, ;)[/quote]

Okay, thanks for this advice.

Now I just have to find an old inner tube. Not willing to cut mine up after one puncture and haven't found a riding pal yet who uses latex tubes.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Since we're talking latex inners and as some of us often receive questions about which ones to buy and so on, I thought maybe this would be a good place to list what's still around.

If you know other brands that still can be bought or know for certain that brand/model x, y or z is still being produced, let us know.

Current production:

Challenge
Sizes?
Valve stem lenghts: ?
Weight(s):
Short description:
Red pigmented latex inner tube looking similar to Vittoria old production, possibly same manufacturer?

Vredestein

Sizes: 20-25mm
Valve stem lengths: 36-50-60mm
Weight(s): 55g (36mm)
Short description:

Probably the only unpigmented latex inner tube still available today. This is what the inner tube inside the best tubulars looks like.
Not sure if this is curent production or NOS. If anyone can confirm?

Image

Michelin

Sizes: 18-20 and 22-23mm
Valve stem lengths: 36 (18-20 and 22-23) , 42 and 30mm (22-23mm only)
Weight(s): 70-80-82g respectively (this can't be correct)
Short description:

The most commonly found (at least in Europe) latex inner tube. Green colour. Not sure if this is curent production or NOS. If anyone can confirm?

Image

NOS (New Old Stock)

Vittoria

Sizes: 19-23mm
Valve stem lengths: 42-51mm
Weight(s): ca. 70g for 51mm stem
Short description:

Red colour. Used to be available in various quality levels among which one being called Gold.

Image

Occosionally I come across inner tubes from other brands such as Continental and Schwalbe. Not sure where or who made them but the Conti looked like a Vittoria and Schwalbe was as black as butyl, the latter could be NOS from when they'd bought Swallow in Thailand.
I am not including rebadged ones as being offered by some bike brands as these are no different AFAIK.

If you know of any other (true) brands or missing data, let me know and I'll update this post.

Ciao, ;)

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Last edited by fdegrove on Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Posts: 116
Very cool & helpful^! Thanks for this info.

I have the Michelins, ordered from Ribble in the UK a few weeks back. (I'm in the U.S.). I went with the 700x22/23 size, going to opt for the 19/20 next time, as per a suggestion in this thread.

I punctured one during my first ride on them. Older tire, so just kind of bad luck. Second one was done in during installation. Out of three ordered I have only one in a tire. Now trying to find someone locally with an old latex tube so I can borrow some patches from them...

I've now started using some powder to help with them, as suggested here. All I had on hand was corn starch...I cook a lot but don't have babies yet so no talc. I'm guessing my wheels will get thick and gelatinous when it rains :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Posts: 96
I've used the Michelin Aircomp green latex 700x22/23 tubes inside Pro3 700x23 tyres for a year and haven't had any more punctures than when I was using butyls in the Pro3's. I've just used standard stick-on patches for punctures and haven't had any failures so far. I inflate them to around 105PSI as suggested for my weight on the Pro3 packets.

I have noticed the latex tubes seem to lose more air than butyl tubes overnight, especially when they're new - not sure why the seem to leak less as they get older?!


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
I've just used standard stick-on patches for punctures and haven't had any failures so far.


It's not as if it wouldn't work. It does most of the time.
The problem however is that you would actually feel where the patch is as you ride over it since butyl (especially patches) hardly stretches compared to latex. This also creates extra stress around the repaired area making it prone to puncture.

While I'm at it, you should not sand down the area to be patched, cleaning it with alcohol should suffice.

Quote:
I have noticed the latex tubes seem to lose more air than butyl tubes overnight, especially when they're new - not sure why the seem to leak less as they get older?!


Latex is far more porous than butyl so it's normal for them to leak more air.
Whether they actually would become less leaky over time I don't know. Never noticed any of it. Maybe you're getting more used to the idea of them leaking over time? :P

Quote:
Now trying to find someone locally with an old latex tube so I can borrow some patches from them...


Surely there must be someone at the local club or even a LBS using latex inner tubes?

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Location: Flanderia, Belgie
I pulled out this Michelin latex tube from storage today when I noticed these marks. The tube was briefly used a few times then put away. But today during inflation it started popping at presumably the weak spots. Has anyone seen these abberations on these tubes before? The tube is effectively supposed to be new, or is it?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Location: Houston, Texas
fdegrove wrote:
If you know of any other (true) brands or missing data, let me know and I'll update this post.
Not latex, but since Challenge latex road tubes seem to have become scares of late, I thought I would give the Panaracer R’AIR inner tubes and must say for a butyl tube, they are pretty close in terms of ride feel and performance yet manage to retain more air pressure overnight when compared to the Challenge and Michelin latex tubes in our other wheelsets.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:27 pm 
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Location: Belgium
Hi,

dog wrote:
I pulled out this Michelin latex tube from storage today when I noticed these marks. The tube was briefly used a few times then put away. But today during inflation it started popping at presumably the weak spots. Has anyone seen these abberations on these tubes before? The tube is effectively supposed to be new, or is it?


I don't see anything abnormal on those pics. What you see are indentations left from what looks like Velox rim tape, other than that?
If by "popping" you mean popping sounds during the inflation process then that's pretty norma; too, it's the tube seating itself inside the envelope.

Ciao, ;)

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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:27 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5783
Location: Belgium
Hi,

Quote:
Not latex, but since Challenge latex road tubes seem to have become scares of late, I thought I would give the Panaracer R’AIR inner tubes and must say for a butyl tube


I don't think those are butyl. Probably butylized latex a la AIR-B (which Michelin bought and subsequently kept in the fridge...).

Ciao, )

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