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PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:16 pm
Posts: 617
they could just thread the BB's, oh wait they used to do that but decided to save themselfs a bit of money


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:39 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 1974
Location: NoVA/DC
em3 wrote:
(interestingly, my cups only came with the o-rings, but no seals...your pics appear to display a lip seal against the frame?)

the cups pictured above are "eps compatible", i believe there is a plastic tube that spans across the new lips facing inboard. this is merely to keep the wires off the bb axle. these cups supercede the old cups.


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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:39 am 


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:03 am 
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Posts: 595
thisisatest wrote:
em3 wrote:
(interestingly, my cups only came with the o-rings, but no seals...your pics appear to display a lip seal against the frame?)

the cups pictured above are "eps compatible", i believe there is a plastic tube that spans across the new lips facing inboard. this is merely to keep the wires off the bb axle. these cups supercede the old cups.


Yes, those raethe places I plan to make threads and connect it with aluminium threaded tube.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:45 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:52 am
Posts: 595
em3 wrote:
Permon wrote:
Yes, it is definatelly a CAMPY fail.
The reason why the driveside cup is coming out of the frame is the design of Ultra Torque system, which uses the wave washer, it gives some side play in the system. ...
This could actually solve the problem:
http://roguemechanic.typepad.com/roguem ... orque.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Permon, the wave washer and the RogueMechanic "fix" has nothing to do with it...this is simply a BBRIght Campy Press Fit issue. It sounds like your LBS is engaging in due diligence to try and solve the issues but I noticed two errors they made.

First, take off rubber o-rings and lip-seals from the cups before installing as they may get snagged in the compound (in between frame and cup) when inserting cups and yield an uneven surface (interestingly, my cups only came with the o-rings, but no seals...your pics appear to display a lip seal against the frame?). Second, Loctite 638 is too thick for this application and as others have indicated, it may be simply oozing out from between the gap when you press in your cups, leaving you with limited compound to actually bond. Use 609 for best results. Begin by applying liberal amounts of primer and be sure to let dry for at least 30-60 minutes, then apply liberal amounts of 609 both on cups and frame. Use a bearing press to fit the cups and leave the press fitted for at least 24 hours (this is very important). Do not let your shop install using the actual cranks as a press....this may result in Loctite oozing into your bearings, leaving you with another problem. There are no shortcuts...the bearing press is required.

Given that your LBS has already tried this a couple of times and failed I suspect there will be lots of compound residue in your BB shell and on your cups...that will need to be cleaned thoroughly (use acetone) before trying to reinstall.

I have installed BBiright cups on many Cervelos and found that my initial use of 641 (what Cervelo was initially recommending when BBRIght was first introduced) was simply not sufficient and the cups found their way loose after a few ride, however, others have had success with 641. I have not had any failures after using 609.

Good luck,
EM3



EM3 thank you for help. I have already bought 609 with activator. I wil try to do it the way you wrote.

Regarding the lip seals, I was told by LBS that it is upgrade from Campagnolo to prevent creacking sounds.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:48 pm 
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So, I bought the Loctite 609 + activator.
I disassmbled the cranks and tried to remove the cups.....well, it seems to me, like it is rock solid and cups are not going out :shock: Uff.
I am going to take it to the LBS to disassemble it, but I am so scared that cups are bonded so strong now, that they will not get out.
I checked the technical documentation for Locite 638 (used by LBS) and found out that it is possible to disassamble bonded parts under one condition.....temperature of 250 °C.
Now I talked to a friend of mine who has a company selling carbon fibres. He said, that 250°C could be OK for carbon fiber, but it will probably get softer and should not be mechanically stressed. Not good, because there is need to take cups out of the frame mechanically.
Other way around is to use solvent to liquefy the acrylat glue. This could be quite safe (carbon fiber should resist it w/o any problem) BUT, the solvent would need to get deep in the bond.....which could be a problem as the fit (cup + frame) was quite tight.

Any advises guys?

I am so *f##k* up by all of this. I just wanted to have a new frame, now I have a BIG problem:(


Last edited by Permon on Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Tubbie Guru

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 2:20 am
Posts: 5794
Location: Belgium
Hi,

The problem IMHO is not going to come from the heat resistance of carbon fibre but from the adhesive that was used to bond the shell to the frame.

On the bright side: it does no longer move so why not leave it be for the time being?

Ciao, ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:52 am
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fdegrove wrote:
Hi,

The problem IMHO is not going to come from the heat resistance of carbon fibre but from the adhesive that was used to bond the shell to the frame.

On the bright side: it does no longer move so why not leave it be for the time being?

Ciao, ;)


...because the cup is not parallel to the frame, so it will damage the bearings. :(


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:09 pm
Posts: 1051
Location: Aix en Provence
Permon wrote:
So, I bought the Loctite 609 + activator.
I disassmbled the cranks and tried to remove the cups.....well, it seems to me, like it is rock solid and cups are not going out :shock: Uff.
I am going to take it to the LBS to disassemble it, but I am so scared that cups are bonded so strong now, that they will not get out.
I checked the technical documentation for Locite 638 (used by LBS) and found out that it is possible to disassamble bonded parts under one condition.....temperature of 250 °C.
No I talked to a friend of mine who has a company selling carbon fibres. He said, that 250°C could be OK for carbon fiber, but it will probably get softer and should not be mechanically stressed. Not good, because there is need to take cups out of the frame mechanically.
Other way around is to use solvent for to liquefy the acrylat glue. This could be quite safe (carbon fiber should resist it w/o any problem) BUT, the solvent would need to get deep in the bond.....which could be a problem as the fit (cup + frame) was quite tight.

Any advises guys?

I am so *f##k* up by all of this. I just wanted to have a new frame, now I have a BIG problem:(


that's exactly what I was concerned about. I think heat maybe the solution to take it out but I would only have that done by a real pro and not the LBS.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:07 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:50 am
Posts: 315
Easy fix, heat it up, let it cool and pop it out.
The loctite's grip fails when heated, not just when hot.
250C is easily acheived with a heat gun on a low setting.
Obviously heat from the center.

Also, the loctite is there to tighthen tolerance, it does not have shear strength so once you move the cup any it's entire purpose is destroyed and it has not holding strength.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:56 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:57 pm
Posts: 671
Location: NYC
timzcat wrote:
Easy fix, heat it up, let it cool and pop it out.
The loctite's grip fails when heated, not just when hot.
250C is easily acheived with a heat gun on a low setting.
Obviously heat from the center.

Also, the loctite is there to tighthen tolerance, it does not have shear strength so once you move the cup any it's entire purpose is destroyed and it has not holding strength.


+1...a heat gun or good hair dryer will provide u sufficient heat to break the bond. However, make sure that proper tools are used to remove cups especially if they require a little bump getting to knock them out...you will want to make sure the removal tool doesn't scrape or scar the inner surface of BB shell. EM3

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:51 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 1974
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heat should not be required to remove the cups.
you could mess up your paint, besides whatever happens to the frame.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:52 am
Posts: 595
Hi guys!

My progress? I was trying to heat it up few times. No progress, cup still in the frame.
Looks like glue is bonded perfectlly.

I do not know if I mentioned.....my LBS put there a special plastic (FSA) shim washer to reduce the side play which Ultra Torque has. So, the cup traveled only a 0,5mm of the frame, because the cranks did not let them go more.

Here we go....So, I removed the FSA washer to let cranks travel more to the right. Put cranks on and went for a 2minute ride....... AND? The right cup went out!!!!!! So, the bond was broken.
Then a i disassembled the cranks and cup was taken out. Uff! I got it:)

So, 2 days ago when I wrote that the side play has a HUGE ROLE in pushing the cups out of the frame, I was right.

My next steps?
I am going to aply primer + 609 and buy this shim kit ( http://roguemechanic.bigcartel.com/prod ... e-shim-kit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )to reduce all the side play from UT cranks....I think this will be the final solution. :idea:


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:09 pm
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Location: Aix en Provence
out of curiousity, in what shape is the BB carbon shell after all this ?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:52 am
Posts: 595
LionelB wrote:
out of curiousity, in what shape is the BB carbon shell after all this ?


I do not see any damage. Cup is still tight fit, can be put in BB only by press - good sign I quess.
But, by my opinion, the BB is bad engineered or manufactured. I will send pics later to show, where is the problem from my poit of view.


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Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:34 pm 


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Posts: 671
Location: NYC
Shimming should only be required if your BB width is less then the 67.2 spec....did you measure your BB shell. You should not use shims in place of the wavy washer...the wavy washer is always necessary to provide the constant preload on the bearings and take up any slack/play. Also, not clear from your last post whether the shim you already installed is 0.5 mm? If yes, that seems much too thick...if you frame requires more then 0.2 or 0.3mm of shims then I would definitely call Cervelo and let them know the BB shell width on your frame is too much out of spec. Sounds like you are in a hurry to ride your new frame (don't blame you, I would be too) but do be sure you let the compound fully set or at least 24 hours before riding. Good luck, EM3

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