Zipp FC 404 vs Enve 3.4 SES

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
NiFTY
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:26 pm

by NiFTY

The tour test used a weight placed laterally on the rim and deflection from centre was measured. RIDE magazine have conducted similar tests with tubs.

Both ENVE and Zipp had around 8-9mm deflection with 20kg placed on the rim, with the zipp slightly more. Lightweight measured 4.5ishmm. I can dig up the exact figures tomorrow. Again these were factory built wheels so I am not saying a handbuilt wheel wouldn't be better.
Evo 5.02kg SL3 6.77 Slice RS 8.89 viewtopic.php?f=10&t=110579" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

by Weenie


User avatar
Spindoctor
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:56 am

by Spindoctor

I have read nothing but glowing reviews of Enve - and one of the riders here uses them and 404's - he prefers the Enve's
Wiliers: Cento Uno; Cento SLR; Imperiale, Zero 7 (all Super Record 11sp naturally)

Zigmeister
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:09 pm

by Zigmeister

TS, you made a statement that you are concerned about deflection. The stiffer the wheel, the more it will move between the brake pads.

If you want stiff with good all around abilities in a tubular, Mavic Cosmic Carbone Ultimates are some of the best wheels.

I have 303 FC tubulars. The only thing I dont like is the play in the rear hub, which you can take out almost entirely by tightenng it, but it causes a few grams of drag. Otherwise, they are a good wheel all around.

Never rode Enve, cant comment on that.

User avatar
Zen Cyclery
Shop Owner
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:27 am
Location: McCall, ID
Contact:

by Zen Cyclery

Zigmeister wrote:TS, you made a statement that you are concerned about deflection. The stiffer the wheel, the more it will move between the brake pads.


Umm, not too sure about this. Care to elaborate a bit?

NiFTY
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 11:26 pm

by NiFTY

Found the test from RIDE. 20 kg applied laterally to each wheel. Deflection measured in mm.

6.7
Front 5.77
Rear (drive) 7.71
Rear (NDS) 8.17

Mavic CCU
Front 5.45
Rear (drive) 4.43
Rear (NDS) 4.51

HED Stinger 6 FR
Front 5.62
Rear (drive) 9.73
Rear (NDS) 8.8

Dura-ace C50 (7900)
Front 5.25
Rear (drive) 6.14
Rear (NDS) 6.1

Zipp 404(front) 808 (rear)
Front 5.82
Rear (drive) 7.63
Rear (NDS) 7.35

Lightweight Standard III
Front 4.02
Rear (drive) 4.94
Rear (NDS) 5.31

Bontrager Aeolus 5 D3
Front 5.74
Rear (drive) 4.94
Rear (NDS) 5.31
Evo 5.02kg SL3 6.77 Slice RS 8.89 viewtopic.php?f=10&t=110579" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thisisatest
Shop Owner
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Location: NoVA/DC

by thisisatest

A stiffer RIM will deflect more at the brake pads. A stiffer WHEEL may or may not deflect at the brakes more, depending on what is giving more. In the case of 404fc, i think if the rim was stiffer, it would affect the wheel lateral stiffness very little, 20cxrays, theyll stretch when the rim is pulled. If the spokes were stiffer, the wheel would increase in stiffness quickly. More spokes would help too.
A flexible rim will deflect locally (at the road) and not distribute the force all the way to the pads.

User avatar
Mario Jr.
Posts: 2183
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:49 am
Location: Denmark
Contact:

by Mario Jr.

NiFTY wrote:Found the test from RIDE. 20 kg applied laterally to each wheel. Deflection measured in mm.

6.7
Front 5.77
Rear (drive) 7.71
Rear (NDS) 8.17

Mavic CCU
Front 5.45
Rear (drive) 4.43
Rear (NDS) 4.51

HED Stinger 6 FR
Front 5.62
Rear (drive) 9.73
Rear (NDS) 8.8

Dura-ace C50 (7900)
Front 5.25
Rear (drive) 6.14
Rear (NDS) 6.1

Zipp 404(front) 808 (rear)
Front 5.82
Rear (drive) 7.63
Rear (NDS) 7.35

Lightweight Standard III
Front 4.02
Rear (drive) 4.94
Rear (NDS) 5.31

Bontrager Aeolus 5 D3
Front 5.74
Rear (drive) 4.94
Rear (NDS) 5.31


Which hubs? I can say that there's a big difference from DT240 to Chris King builds. I have ENVE wheels build with both and the CK build is MUCH stiffer than the DT. I can have the DT build touch the pads quite easily, whereas I can't with the CK.

Richyo
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:58 pm
Location: Adelaide, Australia

by Richyo

NiFTY wrote:Zipp 404(front) 808 (rear)
Front 5.82
Rear (drive) 7.63
Rear (NDS) 7.35


Looking at the pictures of that article they look like the non-FC wheels.

Zigmeister
Posts: 921
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:09 pm

by Zigmeister

Zen Cyclery wrote:
Zigmeister wrote:TS, you made a statement that you are concerned about deflection. The stiffer the wheel, the more it will move between the brake pads.


Umm, not too sure about this. Care to elaborate a bit?


This has been covered before on here. Search. Adrien from RAR has made this statement.

Deflection by hanging a weight in a rim and deflection from force on the crank/pedal and how that translates to movement of the rim in the drops are different.

MarkThailand
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:19 pm

by MarkThailand

cwdzoot wrote:Ridden both and I own a Zipp 304 set but would go Enve if I had to do it over.


Can you please elaborate why?

Key criteria for me are:

Both of are wide rim'ed which is a key criteria for comfort for me.

1) Smooth, not harsh (not too stiff vertically)
2) Aero (I am above 20 mph only a 1/2 of the time when I ride solo 50 mile rides - which is how I normally ride).
3) Durability (rims and spokes)
4) Braking (I don't ride in the rain and I don't intend to ride down mountains)
5) Weight (I am 200lbs)

How would you rank the Zipp and the Enve wheel set for my top two or three criteria?

Thanks.

Mark
2012 Lynskey R330 with SRAM Red Quarq
2013 Parlee Z1 with DA 9070
2013 Lynskey Helix OS II with SRAM Red

User avatar
Zen Cyclery
Shop Owner
Posts: 1244
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:27 am
Location: McCall, ID
Contact:

by Zen Cyclery

MarkThailand wrote:
cwdzoot wrote:Ridden both and I own a Zipp 304 set but would go Enve if I had to do it over.


Can you please elaborate why?

Key criteria for me are:

Both of are wide rim'ed which is a key criteria for comfort for me.

1) Smooth, not harsh (not too stiff vertically)
2) Aero (I am above 20 mph only a 1/2 of the time when I ride solo 50 mile rides - which is how I normally ride).
3) Durability (rims and spokes)
4) Braking (I don't ride in the rain and I don't intend to ride down mountains)
5) Weight (I am 200lbs)

How would you rank the Zipp and the Enve wheel set for my top two or three criteria?

Thanks.

Mark


The Enves (in particular the SMART series) are more aero than the Zipps. They are more durable because they mold their spoke holes, where as Zipp drills theirs which puts a big weak spot in the rim. The braking on the Enve SMARTS is superior to any other braking I have seen on a carbon clincher or tuby. The brake track is cut a bit more roughly than most which makes braking grabby and responsive.

dmoneysworks
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:35 am
Location: Parakai, New Zealand

by dmoneysworks

I ordered the Zipp FC 404 tub's today so I'll have ability to make my own decision within two weeks when they get a virgin ride/race covering 200 km's (K2) with 2,500 metres of climbing! ...can't wait, if they are really that crap then I can still build up a set of 3.4 SES tub's on the Alchemy/DT Swiss 190 hubs I have sitting in a box!

That should cover durability, braking, aero, smooth (comfort) & weight in a single ride!

jcumpstay
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:26 am

by jcumpstay

I have Zipp FC 404's built up with power tap rear hub and have ridden them in crit races as well as training rides and commuting for the last 12-18 months. Loved every second on the Zipps. They were stiff, aero and comfortable all in one.
Last week I received my set of Enve 3.4 SES wheels built up on Alchemy hubs (thanks Justin Spinelli of Luxe Wheelworks). Compared to the Zipps, all I can say is Wow! The Enve's are just better. Possibly in large due to the hubs, but these wheels just seem smoother, spin up quicker and just feel faster all around. They also seem to keep a certain level of comfortability similar to the Zipps.
Anyone looking to make a decision on Zipps vs Enve's, my advice would be to get the Enve's but get some custom hubs to build them on.
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1350296229.333854.jpg

User avatar
cwdzoot
Shop Owner
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:17 am
Location: Greenville, SC USA
Contact:

by cwdzoot

For MarkThailand -

Having ridden both I felt the Enve were a little more solid in the rear. Zipp 303 and 404 rear wheels feel a little spongy to me perhaps it's the drive side radial?
Braking I also felt was better on the Enve, the track seems to have less of a pulse but both feel about the same otherwise.
Aerodynamics - I can't say for sure that's more of a theoretical discussion but when I look at the propaganda from both sides the Enve wheels seems to have more to them design wise.
Durability and strength - not had issues with either and really they use the same spokes. Zipp are straight pull and Enve J bend so perhaps Zipp has an advantage there.

Moreover the Enve are cooler looking and you have a few custom options.
Blog: http://glorycycles.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/glorycycles/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tranzformer
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:36 pm

by tranzformer

Zen Cyclery wrote:The Enves (in particular the SMART series) are more aero than the Zipps. They are more durable because they mold their spoke holes, where as Zipp drills theirs which puts a big weak spot in the rim. The braking on the Enve SMARTS is superior to any other braking I have seen on a carbon clincher or tuby. The brake track is cut a bit more roughly than most which makes braking grabby and responsive.


Enve SES more aero than Zipp FC? Have any indenepdent data on that, i.e. not from Enve?

I keep hearing that Edge/Enve wheels are more durable because the spoke holes are molded and not drilled. However I have not see any independent data on this. Zipp will say otherwise regarding this. Zipp has had their wheels survive and win PR and Flanders. Not sure how much stronger you need a wheel than that.

I have never heard any of the guys complain about the FC Zipp brake performance. If anything they all highly laud its performance.


Zen, you seem highly biased against Zipp and highly biased in favor of Edge/Enve. Care to state your relationship to Enve? I assume if you build wheels, you predominately build Enve wheels?

by Weenie


Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post