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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:14 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
Riis was climbing above 6.5 and made Indurain look like a tortoise on the climbs so again, if Indurain was on EPO then he was seriously lacking in his ability to use it.

Perhaps I've missed something but are you just focusing on 1996? Because that would only be part of the story. Rember that Indurain won five consecutive TdFs and Riis one. In 1991, when Indurain worked with doctor Conconi, Indurain won his first TdF and Riis finished 107th overall. In 1992 Indurain won his second TdF at the hand of doctor Conconi and Riis did not start. In 1993 Riis joined the Gewiss team and also started working with Conconi, Indurain won again and Riis suddenly finished 5th overall. In 1994, both with the help of Conconi, Indurain won again and Riis finished 14th. In 1995 Indurain won his fifth TdF and Riis managed a podium place, finishing 3rd overall. Note that both riders worked with Conconi in 1993, 1994 and 1995, Riis did not make Indurain look like a tortoise and the latter did not show lacking ability to use the EPO provided by doctor Conconi, especially if we note that he also won the 1992 and 1993 Giro d'Italia.

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Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:14 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Willier wrote:
Pozzato signed with Lampre for next 3 years

Well, perhaps the Lampre medical staff led by doctors Carlo Guardascione and Pietro Ronchi can bring him back at the top. Guardascione is currently under investigation in the "Mantova" case involving pharmacist Guido Nigrelli, as well as riders such as Simoni, Di Luca and Mazzoleni. Ronchi was already with Lampre under doctor Ibarguren at the time when Rumsas and Dierckxsens were caught.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:09 pm 
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Regarding Boardman, indeed.
Rominger also, 2km/h faster than Indurain? :)


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:18 pm 
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Timo,

Regarding Indurain's Giros, what about Berzin? He must have had 70% hema?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Berzin was with Team Gewiss and as such a client of doctor Conconi just like Indurain. Rominger was a client of doctor Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:01 pm 
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I got that he was his client.
The thing is that he beat him. How did that happen?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:25 pm 
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I wouldn't know. Perhaps Berzin build his form to peak in the Giro with Indurain still building up to peak in the Tour but that's just one of many possibilities.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:36 pm 
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Can someone please define how this is bad for pro cycling other than saying 'this isn't good for cycling'? I hear/read it a lot lately but don't really know what to make of it.

Will races die? Mainstream TV coverage die? Streaming video on cyclingfans no longer? Pros make less money?

Discuss


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:22 pm 
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I think the biggest problem is that real sponsors are getting rare, and this case will not help.

BMC, Astana, Katyusa are already not business sponsors.
Lampre, Omega Pharma (and others) are financing their cycling team mostly because of their leaders' like of cycling.

Maybe it's not a problem, I'm not sure.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:49 pm 
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Without some actual scientific data, such as VAM data or blood tests, everything you've said regarding Indurain to me is just speculation. I do not believe that a supposed link= truth or dirtiness. I've never seen anything about Indurain that showed that his climbing was at inhuman levels. He also wasn't a pure climber like people seem to make him out to be.

Personally, I think he was clean until 1994. When he and Luc LeBlanc took off and just annihilated everyone else I think it was a bit obvious that he had a tad more fitness than his previous victories. Again, he also had some of the highest lab tests ever recorded and his weight wasn't as high as people are throwing around here. His earlier performances don't stand out as crazy as those of the mid 90's-2000's

Fabian is full of shit though. He rode for CSC with all of these other dopers and worked under Cecchini as well, although maybe Checchini didn't push him to dope if we want to believe what TH said about the doc's ways.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:00 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
Without some actual scientific data, such as VAM data or blood tests, everything you've said regarding Indurain to me is just speculation. I do not believe that a supposed link= truth or dirtiness.

...and then you say...
KWalker wrote:
Fabian is full of shit though. He rode for CSC with all of these other dopers and worked under Cecchini as well, although maybe Checchini didn't push him to dope if we want to believe what TH said about the doc's ways.

A link with Cecchini is prove yet a link with Conconi is speculation? Do you mind if I LOL'd?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:30 am 
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This is the big news http://road.cc/content/news/68847-anoth ... t-disaster" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:02 am 
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KWalker wrote:
...The real funny/sad part about this is that cyclists think that this is all sophisticated stuff. Cycling's use of PEDs is probably a decade behind many other sports. Andriol is an incredibly weak steroid, EPO is fairly old news in oxygen vector doping, and cyclists seem unable to figure out how to properly use HGH and IGF-1. Shit, they still think cortisone is cutting edge. It really surprises me that cyclists stuck to such a narrow ring of doctors that really were using outdated products for a long period of time....

...because it takes them so long to catch up because they are focused on parameters that are no long disturbed with current methods. I would guess transfusions are still heavily used, however, and people still take EPO, but probably a lot less often.


By your own statement then if teams/cyclists were using more sophisticated methodology we would not know about it, due to the lag in testing capability?

Apparently the AFL teams in Aus are using this:-
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthokine

I'd never even heard of it till then. I am sure there is much more than this being used.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:40 am 
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KWalker wrote:
Personally, I think he was clean until 1994. When he and Luc LeBlanc took off and just annihilated everyone else I think it was a bit obvious that he had a tad more fitness than his previous victories.

I don't know man...'89 and '90 Big Miq was up there, close but no cigar, and then 1991 he was at the top with large margin to 2nd. For Indurain, 1991 appears to be the watershed year.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:03 am 
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Wow, that video on the last page from the '94 tour - those guys are nearly my size! (E.g. "Normal")



And agreed about the drug use in cycling being light years behind other sports!


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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:03 am 


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