I'm not defending Giant, but further to justkeepedaling, does Parlee have "full control" over Enve, its tube and fork supplier?

Giant Marketing wants you to think that "full control" over the entire manufacturing process is important and makes for a better bike. Bullshit. It's called FUD - fear, uncertainty, and doubt. Giant wants to plant that seed of doubt in your head when considering other brands. Are you going to tell me Giant carbon fibre is better than Toray?

If this is so important why doesn't a company like Boeing do it? They don't make their own carbon fibre, they don't smelt their own aluminium - they don't even make their own engines! Surely this must be bad - they have no control over any of the crucial components in the manufacturing of their aircraft!

Thirty years ago did De Rosa, Colnago, or Pinnarello make their own tubing? Of course not...

_________________
Fear is healthy, panic can be deadly

Absence of full control is not the same as no control.

i think 'control' might not be the right word, by doing it all themselfs they have more options and can develope carbon weaves/mats to suit there purpose rather than having to use generic ones, and have more control over the bits used on the frame, fork etc.

they know what they are doing with carbon which is why they make alot of other peoples bikes as well

oh and a few of the bikes mentioned which where left out where left out because they where not availiable at the time of the test.

That was sarcasm....

Large manufacturers have almost complete control over their suppliers - look at any large complex industry like automotive, aerospace, even Apple. Are you telling me Apple's suppliers dictate *anything* to them? Not a chance. They work very closely together though, so closely in fact you sometimes have a hard time distinguishing the supplier from the manufacturer.

My point is you do not *need* to make everything yourself to turn out a great product. That's Giant b.s.... Giant makes their own carbon? Great! Does not automatically mean you get a "better" bike...its marketing.

_________________
Fear is healthy, panic can be deadly

Boeing had significant delays in producing the 787 because of inadequate control over a far-flung supplier/subcontractor network. It took them a long time to get on top of things and get the quality control and compatibility between parts which was needed for a safe and effective airplane. Boeing had almost no control over some of those suppliers/subcontractors for quite a while. You know who the worst offenders were? Our good friends in Italy who decided to deviate from the specs they were provided without bothering to tell it to/discuss it with Boeing. So control does matter. It need not be full, but it must be adequate.

My point is Giant is touting their vertically integrated supply chain as *the* reason why, according to them, they "win", and therefore make the best bikes. And I disagree. There are obviously a lot of great bikes out there from companies who are either too small to be or choose not to be vertically integrated.

_________________
Fear is healthy, panic can be deadly

I am happy to report the Impec does finally exist. A month ago I noticed an Impec frameset hanging on wall at a shop called Tri Pacific in Long Beach, CA. I had to ask what it was, and I was surprised when I got my answer. The Impec is very impressive looking in person...It looks very different (and more exotic) than any run-of-the-mill BMC.

I struggle to see the validity in these tests. First of all the weight test is completely skewed initially by adding 250g to every bike that isn't an ISP. This is ridiculous as you don't have to look far to find an exceptional alloy one that weighs a lot less than 250g. Also the notable mention of any other ISP bike was really missed in terms of comparing apples for apples. And through trial and error of bike manufacturers, they realised they would rather pay the small weight penalty and take a standard post over an ISP in preference of better ride quality because there is a tendency for ISP's to provide a bit more harshness through the saddle. I think that Giant's thinking here for that reason is very outdated because ISP's were a fad about 4 years ago that was phased out for this reason.

The blend of carbon fibre used is called T-800 which is actually a intermediate modulus carbon from the giants in this industry, Toray. Which I find it unusual how Giant can claim this as their own work. Basically what they have done is go along to Toray, found a nice top shelf carbon taken it back to their designers and said "go build". This blend of carbon is generally found in cheap Chinese frames, and I don't have anything against Chinese frames as I know a few people who have them and love them, however there has always been questions about how they cope and behave in crashes.

I see Giant's way as a little bit of an easy way out. When you compare this to the approach at BMC for their Impec model, they have revolutionised carbon composites in cycling who through intense innovation took a completely different approach and sought only absolute precision and perfection.

Also I noticed an absence of bikes that their mosed is actually competing against. For example where was the new Madone? They only tested the old one. Also the Scott Addict, really? That is ages old in terms of bike years and has been superseded by the Foil. They highlighted that there was a lack of their bikes in bike tests, but isnt that exactly what they have done here with outdated models?

And as the great aerodynamicists of the world are proving, aerodynamics plays a greater role than weight does in the behaviour of a bike. So to claim they 'win' is just highlighting that they only win these tests in a controlled and biased environment designed for them to win on. I am the proud owner of a Felt AR and can testify to the gains associated with aerodynamics that can be made. Felt claims (I know, just as biased) a 1.6kg effective weight loss over non aerodynamic profiles, however I didn't see Giant do a windtunnel test to claim their resounding victory over all other bikes available.

Finally, most of your bikes time will not be spent on a flex rig, nor when you are riding it, will you be riding it on a set of scales. So my advice is, don't pay attention to any of these bike tests unless you are a pro rider like Andre Greipel and you are concerned there is too much deflection at the bottom bracket of your Ridley. Just go along to your local bike store, pick out a bike you like, ride it and see if it suits your riding style then buy it because most of these tests are marketing BS.

yep

+100

_________________
Wilier Cento Uno
Colnago Master X-light
Wilier 18carati

Helps reinforce the decision some of us made to keep our SuperSix HM frames instead of upgrading to the Evo. Well the main reason was so our wives wouldn't leave us. Evo is a great frame, but this helps reinforce what I feel I have felt from my limited time on an Evo test ride.

_________________
"Let's plunge ourselves into the roar of time, the whirl of accident; may pain and pleasure, success and failure, shift as they will -- it's only action that can make a man."