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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:13 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 1980
Location: NoVA/DC
@Zen,
he said he built it heads-out.
@KvnP,
weird. like zen described, heads-out is easier on the flange, easier on the elbows, generally. there could be some other things going on, though. the spoke elbows could have been over-(orunder-) stress relieved. like you mentioned, flange shape or width could be less than ideal. could even be simply a bad batch of spokes.
how bout some pics?


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Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:13 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:47 pm
Posts: 2196
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
The spoke holes are chamfered on the outside but not the inside, on both hubs.

When laced heads out the heads are flush with the side of the flange. When laced heads in, the heads stick out about 1-2mm. I think that the old wheel was breaking spokes because with heads out, the elbow is not supported by the hub. That's where the spokes broke.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Posts: 4
It might be that the holes are too large diameter for the spoke you are using allowing some slack in the fit. If so, you may want to re lace with spoke washers under the heads. You don't see it done much anymore, but is an old trick.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
I have to say Zen's repsonce and your post Eric did not seem to tie up. I could be the spoke holes are too big for the spokes. What spoke did you use and what was the spoke hole diamter.

I have yet to find a problem with 2.6mm spoke holes and 2.0mm spokes at the bend. Spoke washers might be a solution here but you spoke length will inrease a smidge.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:32 pm 
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Posts: 2196
Location: Santa Cruz, California, USA
I can't find the spec but I think they're 2.6mm holes like the other BHS hubs.

You can see the chamfer on the outer edge of the spoke holes but not the inner on the pic here: http://www.bikehubstore.com/SL71W-p/slf71w.htm

The hub I have the problem with is the UL66 but it looks like all the BHS front hubs are done the same way. When I put a loose spoke in the SL71W hub head out there's a bit of play back and forth in the spoke hole. Head in and there's little or no play.

Jobst says if the elbow is longer than the flange width to bend the elbow to an obtuse angle (> 90 degrees) but I have a hard time bringing myself to do that. It seems like spoke washers would be better. I can understand why they'd chamfer the outer sides of the spoke holes and not the insides- can't get the tool in there- but it seems like it'd be better to not chamfer them at all.

I am going to finish the wheel I've laced radial heads in on the SL71W hub and I think I'm going to build a new wheel to replace the one that's breaking spokes, using another UL66 hub but laced 1x heads in. Yea it won't look as cool but you lose all cool points when you're on the side of the road re-truing your wheel to get past the brake pads so you can wobble home.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:07 pm
Posts: 1128
Location: Slovenia---that forest land
One little test - soon pictures and review if all stays in one piece

rear Kinlin XR3800 on 18 holes. 12 sapim cx ray 2x cross on DS and 6 sapim cx ray on NDS.
tension was litlle higher on NDS (130kg)
First ride (just quick from test rider) was in good mood

hub Novatec

So you have super aero wheelset with 16 front and 18 rear spokes - rear is superstiff

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:59 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:25 pm
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
It would be nice if those rims in those drillings were easily avilable in the U.k. Kavitor where did you get Novatec hubs in those drillings? Whast is the weight of the XR-380 and the weight of the wheelset?

I did build up a Kinlin XR-300 20F radial and 24R 2x on Novatec A291 and F482 hubs with Spaim CX-ray spokes/alloy nipples this week. It the first time I have done this particular build and I was very impressed with the stiffness of the wheels. 1484g as well. So lighter and alot cheaper than Fulcrum racing 3's. I know what I will be building for my self now for a spot of racing next year.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:56 pm 
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Location: Slovenia---that forest land
I use novatec 24 hole rear hub. On NDS i skip holes (12 holes, 6 spokes)

XR 380 is about 560g per rim

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:12 pm 
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Posts: 16
Questions for you Pro wheel builders - I just had some Kinlin XR-19W rims laced to BHS hubs with 24/28 lasers built by a local shop - as I have yet to enter the wheel building world. I am around 185 lbs and had no problems with old Cane Creek Volos 24/28's, or Campy Zonda's for that matter. Front wheel is great , however when I go to drop the hammer, the rear just dosent transmit the torque to crest that hill or power the flats. They spin fast but I cant muscle my way up a climb like I used to. I guess I should have gone XR-300's but:

I wanted to check spoke tension first - what should the DS and NDS tension be? NDS spokes feel quite low in tension...

Would it make a difference to rebuild with 'Race' spokes instead on both DS and NDS?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:23 pm 
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Location: McCall, ID
Miele wrote:
Questions for you Pro wheel builders - I just had some Kinlin XR-19W rims laced to BHS hubs with 24/28 lasers built by a local shop - as I have yet to enter the wheel building world. I am around 185 lbs and had no problems with old Cane Creek Volos 24/28's, or Campy Zonda's for that matter. Front wheel is great , however when I go to drop the hammer, the rear just dosent transmit the torque to crest that hill or power the flats. They spin fast but I cant muscle my way up a climb like I used to. I guess I should have gone XR-300's but:

I wanted to check spoke tension first - what should the DS and NDS tension be? NDS spokes feel quite low in tension...

Would it make a difference to rebuild with 'Race' spokes instead on both DS and NDS?

Thanks!


I was worried about this problem on these rims. They are only rated to go 105 kgf for max tension, which definitely makes me a bit skeptical. Even if upon the initial build, they were setup to 105 kgf DS, this is still low enough to where I would think the nips would gradually start unwinding.
Go ahead and check the DS tension and make sure it is at 105 or just a tad abobe. For the NDS, you aren't looking for any specific number. As long as your DS is good, and the wheel is in dish, then you should be good to go.
I doubt switching to Race spokes will do much either. If getting the rear back up to proper tension doesn't change the ride quality, you may want to consider rebuilding to the XR270 or what not.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Posts: 16
Thanks! I will get them checked.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:39 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Poland
Zen Cyclery wrote:
dmoneysworks wrote:
I've brought the following parts for my 1st build. I am 73kgs/160lbs.

Hubs = DT240 front 24H/Rear 28H
Rims = Velocity A23

I am thinking of lacing as follows - 2x front DT Revo's w/ alloy nipple and 2x rear - DS DT Comp & brass nipple + NDS DT Revo & alloy nipple.

Ultimately I am looking for a reliable/durable wheelset not necessarily a lightweight one (though not keen to add extra without reason)! I choose the 240's for ease of swapping to race wheels (DT190 rear). I currently ride handbuilt 20/24H DT 240's with DT Revo's (2x DS otherwise radial) & Reynolds Attack carbon rim without much issue, only slight flex out of saddle climbing on rear.

Wanted to run my build past those experienced wheelbuilders out there as a peer review :thumbup: Your expert opinions are welcomed. Thanks


The 2x up front should be just fine. On the rear, go with a 3x on the drive side.



I suggeted spoke Mac Aero 424 is the beter than round spoke, alloy nipples fiont and rear, you are light rider.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Posts: 7
I´m now riding the 1990s campy shamal 16h wheels on my road bike and am looking for building a lighter and "springier" set of wheels. Have more or less decided to use the alpha 340 rim. My first idea was to use dati hubs and dt revolutions or sapim lasers (possibly stronger spokes for the rear drive side) and build 28h rear and 24h front. Now though, I came across the older zipp 182 82 hubs with 24h rear and 20h front not that much more expensive than the datis.

I weigh 67 kg (148 pounds) and ride quite smooth and believe I´m not that hard on equipment. Will train maybe 1000 miles a year on the wheels and do a couple of crits. I would need some opinions on which hubs to use? I guess the zipp hubs are of a better quality than the datis and would build into a stiffer wheel due to the straight pull spokes? Would that somewhat equal out 4 spokes less per wheel? With the zipps I guess you can only do radial lacing front and rear non drive side and 1x drive side? With the datis there are more possibilities for cross lacing. What would you choose for my purposes, are both options still too fragile?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Location: McCall, ID
marcopantani wrote:
I´m now riding the 1990s campy shamal 16h wheels on my road bike and am looking for building a lighter and "springier" set of wheels. Have more or less decided to use the alpha 340 rim. My first idea was to use dati hubs and dt revolutions or sapim lasers (possibly stronger spokes for the rear drive side) and build 28h rear and 24h front. Now though, I came across the older zipp 182 82 hubs with 24h rear and 20h front not that much more expensive than the datis.

I weigh 67 kg (148 pounds) and ride quite smooth and believe I´m not that hard on equipment. Will train maybe 1000 miles a year on the wheels and do a couple of crits. I would need some opinions on which hubs to use? I guess the zipp hubs are of a better quality than the datis and would build into a stiffer wheel due to the straight pull spokes? Would that somewhat equal out 4 spokes less per wheel? With the zipps I guess you can only do radial lacing front and rear non drive side and 1x drive side? With the datis there are more possibilities for cross lacing. What would you choose for my purposes, are both options still too fragile?


If your going to be upgrading hubs, I think there are much better options out there than the Zipps. Those (well the 88/188 combo) are notorious for being inconsistent with regards to durability. Since your building on the 340 (which is definitely a softer rim in a relative sense) I think that going with something with wider flange spacing would be a good idea to increase lateral rigidity. Maybe the Alchemy ELF/ORC. They don't come cheap, but they are a solid hubset that will build up a much more rigid wheelset than the 182s.

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Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:52 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:10 pm
Posts: 7
thanks for your response, yes can see that the elf/orc are a real upgrade. Forgot to mention that the build is on a budget, the zipps were about 190 dollar for front and rear, actually about the same as dati hubs now as I did the currency calculation. Just the question if I would be better off with zipps. But perhaps I should instead go 32h 24h or 32h 28h with circus monkey hubs or other similar ones? Can you recommend another hub with wider flange spacing in that price and weight range that comes in silver?


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