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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:44 am 
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Uh oh. Mackers vs. Zen Cyclery shootout. Any other opinions?

On that note, I would ideally get some alchemy hubs, but I can't afford them. I've seen some circus money hubs floating around that has wider center to flange dimensions. Would those be better?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:24 am 
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jaketim114 wrote:
Uh oh. Mackers vs. Zen Cyclery shootout. Any other opinions?

On that note, I would ideally get some alchemy hubs, but I can't afford them. I've seen some circus money hubs floating around that has wider center to flange dimensions. Would those be better?


I haven't worked with the Circus Monkeys at all. As far as Mackers comment, nipples breaking and spokes losing tension can be a very real problem. However, I think that with attention to detail (consistency of tension, proper stress relieving, etc) should allow you to avoid those problems.
With regards to the hubs, have you taken a look at the White Industries T11s? They aren't quite as wide of flange spacing as the Alchemys, nor are they as light, but they are a solid hubset and are damn good considering the price.

-Roland

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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 2:24 am 


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:50 am 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
I have a RR415 rear 28 spoke. I am 80kg. DS tension is set to 1100N whih is the max reomended tension. The Miche hubs I am using dictate a NDS tension of around 500N. With the tyre on and up to 110 psi that has dropped to ~450N. I have 2x lacing and the nipples have not loosened of yet in the first few hundred miles and the wheels remain very true. Flex is pretty minimal but is there. Spoke breakage well time will tell.

So I concur with Zen, low spoke tension does not mean spoke loosening off so long as the NDS tension is very even.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:07 am 
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So what NDS spoke tension do you figure he'll have after inflating?

40-38kg?

I'm not saying it won't work, I'm just pointing out that that particular rim/hub combination may prove problematic.
Personally I'd err on the side of caution, and choose either a different hub or a different rim.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:15 am 
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Ok I'm building up my HED C2 rims with Alchemy hubs and Sapim CX-Rays. The build is 28 (2x) front and 32 (3x) rear. I'm using the Park Tool TM-1 and based on comments here the best chart column for use with these spokes is 'Steel Blade 1.0 x 2.0~2.2 mm' (the spoke is nominally 1.0 x 2.1 mm).

I haven't been able to find the maximum spoke tension for these rims. HED publish maximum spoke tensions (in TM 1 units) for their wheelsets here. Any suggestions as to which wheelset is representative of the HED C2 rim?

Evidently the Ardennes FR/SL are a lighter rim (Scandium?) compared to the LT/CL so maybe I'll go with the LT/CL suggestions for maximum tension?

Does the fact that these wheels come with straight-pull radial spokes (whereas mine are J-bend crossed) alter the recommended maximum tension?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Mackers wrote:
So what NDS spoke tension do you figure he'll have after inflating?

40-38kg?

I'm not saying it won't work, I'm just pointing out that that particular rim/hub combination may prove problematic.
Personally I'd err on the side of caution, and choose either a different hub or a different rim.


Since the spacing is poor, I could always try to lace 2x heads in on the DS to squeeze out a little more room. That's probably good for a mm or 2.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Location: Slovenia---that forest land
what about Bartime hubs?
large flange on DS vs NDS.

for low tension rims i think it is perfect(but where get that hubs)

About park tool TS1- same accurate with round and flat spokes'

i did some tests. Put 120kg of weights on spoke - one spoke was sapim d light (round 1,6mm) and other sapim cx ray straight pull

on d light it was very close to actual weight.
On sapim cx ray it was correct when i unwind screw 8wich holds one part of spring) for 6 revolutions.

Now i am waiting for Wheelfanatic superdruper device :)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:13 pm 
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Location: Surrey UK
Guys, can I ask you for advice?
Now I'm building set of wheels:
H Plus Son Archetype 23/25mm, initially I thought about Velocity A23, but Archetype should be stronger due to its higher profile.
Mig/Mag 70/170, spokes cx-ray 24/28. Front pattern radial inbound. Rear, that's the question I was hoping you can help me with. Should I go for 2x and radial for stiffness...?
I'm 200lb. I'm hoping to build stiffer and stronger wheel than the one I'm using right now: IRD Cadence VSR, cx-ray 28 2x, Dati hub.
Thanks in advance.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:20 pm 
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1415chris wrote:
Guys, can I ask you for advice?
Now I'm building set of wheels:
H Plus Son Archetype 23/25mm, initially I thought about Velocity A23, but Archetype should be stronger due to its higher profile.
Mig/Mag 70/170, spokes cx-ray 24/28. Front pattern radial inbound. Rear, that's the question I was hoping you can help me with. Should I go for 2x and radial for stiffness...?
I'm 200lb. I'm hoping to build stiffer and stronger wheel than the one I'm using right now: IRD Cadence VSR, cx-ray 28 2x, Dati hub.
Thanks in advance.


Since your doing a 28 hole, go with a 3x both sides on the rear.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:40 pm 
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kavitator wrote:
what about Bartime hubs?
large flange on DS vs NDS.

for low tension rims i think it is perfect(but where get that hubs)



Interesting, I wonder what the price is. Can't find them anywhere.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Location: Glermsford, Suffolk U.K
The Escape rim may have a max recomended tension of 1050N but I would always put a minimum of 1100N on the drive side regardless of the manufacturer says. If a rim cannot take 1100N of spoke tension it is not worthy of spokes.

I am sure the escape rim will be happy with 1100-1200N if it isn't the choose another rim. If those tension are used then sensible NDS tensions will achieved with the BHS hubs.

I want to build with those archetpye rims. Lets us know the real weight of the rims. I might buy some, they look pretty good to. I am imagining a 24F/28R set with Goldtec hubs and CX-ray spokes.

I like the look of the Bartime hubs. I like the where to buy page alot.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:21 pm 
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Location: Slovenia---that forest land
you can reduce 10 speed to 11 speed (shimano) on bartime road hubs.
saw them on Eurobike - really nice hubs and design.

ok back to wheelbuilding

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:01 pm 
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Location: Surrey UK
Zen Cyclery wrote:
1415chris wrote:
Guys, can I ask you for advice?
Now I'm building set of wheels:
H Plus Son Archetype 23/25mm, initially I thought about Velocity A23, but Archetype should be stronger due to its higher profile.
Mig/Mag 70/170, spokes cx-ray 24/28. Front pattern radial inbound. Rear, that's the question I was hoping you can help me with. Should I go for 2x and radial for stiffness...?
I'm 200lb. I'm hoping to build stiffer and stronger wheel than the one I'm using right now: IRD Cadence VSR, cx-ray 28 2x, Dati hub.
Thanks in advance.


Since your doing a 28 hole, go with a 3x both sides on the rear.

Thanks for your input. I've just found one of your interesting elaborations on the rear patterns on the other forum :thumbup:

Have you, or anybody else by any chance, dealt with these rims? Going for 28 on the rear, would it be enough for that weight? Although their web says that these rims should hold the 200lb biker with 20/24.... maybe with different spokes, than my choice.

And speaking about the Dati hubs, I've just posted in "Dati hubs" thread,:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=79202&start=30#p921981"

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Pronghorn XC SW Race 8284g/18.26lb


Last edited by 1415chris on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:06 pm 
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I have worked quite a bit with the A23, but I have not built any of the H+ products. I have had quite a few customers ask about them, but I have no real world experience with them.

With regards to spoke count, I think that you should stick with the 28 hole rear. You could probably get away with a 20/24, but I have always been a fan of overbuilding a bit.

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Last edited by Zen Cyclery on Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:06 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:35 am
Posts: 188
Location: Parakai, New Zealand
I've brought the following parts for my 1st build. I am 73kgs/160lbs.

Hubs = DT240 front 24H/Rear 28H
Rims = Velocity A23

I am thinking of lacing as follows - 2x front DT Revo's w/ alloy nipple and 2x rear - DS DT Comp & brass nipple + NDS DT Revo & alloy nipple.

Ultimately I am looking for a reliable/durable wheelset not necessarily a lightweight one (though not keen to add extra without reason)! I choose the 240's for ease of swapping to race wheels (DT190 rear). I currently ride handbuilt 20/24H DT 240's with DT Revo's (2x DS otherwise radial) & Reynolds Attack carbon rim without much issue, only slight flex out of saddle climbing on rear.

Wanted to run my build past those experienced wheelbuilders out there as a peer review :thumbup: Your expert opinions are welcomed. Thanks


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