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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:23 pm 
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On this morning's ride my friend and I were discussing Chi/Neijia and the Martial Arts, more specifically the Wing Chun and the utilization of both internal power resources and the external forces of your opponent (at the time) into intentional moments of energy, utilizing speed, presence, and placement.

That got us thinking: are there any coaches or programs for cyclists that translate the concepts behind Neijia into cycling on the road? Perhaps more specific to racing, but even just as a practice in training?

Can you (meaning, you, anyone reading this) think of any known pro cyclist whether current or former that seems to use Neijia practices in their racing methods?
Internet searches have come up mostly empty. Perhaps there is a useful cross over that has not been explored yet?
(also: there's a tendency for most cyclists to just do what has been done before in repetition, hesitation to explore completely different routes. Folks on this forum are not exempt from that default tendency, let's be honest)

Thanks.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:54 pm 
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similar to the ideas of "chi running"?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:17 pm 
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Yes, a bit along those lines, but not so much in the pedal stroke. Chi running focus more on the running technique and that's more of an external practice for most people... most people don't really get into the internal side that would make the Chi Running effortless. I'm more interested in the internal side of things and how that can translate into training/racing/competition.

I suppose the Neijia practice in cycling would be multifold:
-endurance through strength of will
-'balance' of your opponents attacks, negating them.
-utilizing internal and external forces as the primary source of power, traditional concepts of just hammering along become secondary.

I'm a practicing buddhist and genuinely interested in this sort of stuff. I shot an e-mail to a teacher I've known for years (who runs marathons) and he is interested in exploring the concept further but has not heard of Neijia practices being applied to cycling both in competition and in training. It's one thing to run that way, but another to ride that way.

(brief history for those of you who are lost, historically these practices developed like this:
Buddhism -> Zen Buddhism -> Shaolin (after the founder realized his monks lacked the physical strength and endurance capacities needed to balance the mental strengths).
Neijia is the 'internal' side of martial arts, from the Buddhist origins.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:57 pm 
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I use and encourage meditation but I don't go for the real spritual side, my approach is a little more "practical".

Basically the my approach is that mind is a computer and a little bit of "programming, file allotment and defragging" can be a good idea.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:37 pm 
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Yyyyyyeah, Neijia practices ≠ meditation. They're completely different.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:02 am 
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I know, but was demonstrating the counterpoint to:- "there's a tendency for most cyclists to just do what has been done before in repetition, hesitation to explore completely different routes."

In all my years of martial arts I never really "got" the chi aspect. I always believed, and have had demonstrated, what an awesome machine the brain is and how much you can train it and apply it in physical settings.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:23 am 
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Given that there are about 10 total Asian cyclists in the world (let's be honest it's mostly a Euro/American sport). I don't think anyone's considered applying these principles to cycling. Doesn't mean that they don't apply though!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:47 am 
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cycling is not philosophy, it is a physical sport. tricking your brain into feeling better can help to improve your performance, but when you are at the pinnacle of your sport it could be considered a marginal gain. cyclist live very stressful lives, monks don't. what works for monks does not work on competitive individuals. tai chi and similar disciplines are based on the ability to change position and stances to balance weakness and strength and the bike is too restrictive of a machine. chi might help runners (inexperience) because there are more muscle recruitment and more room for error. african runners do not really practice chi techniques. in fact most if not all sport dominant figures, do not implement those techniques.


Last edited by roca rule on Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:51 am 
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Don't mean to go OT, but even our dear Australian Tinea Pedis will verify that there are far more than 10 Asian cyclists in the world, that is a growing competitive sport worldwide, and more. The Columbians will have a point to pick about the comment of it being only a Euro/American thing, and Brasil produces some of the top mountain riders in the world. The Asian Pro Tour is quite strong and the races aren't easy at all. In Japan, where I do believe there are more than 10 Asian cyclists, Keirin racers can compete and often win against the best that Europe or America can offer up for the challenge.

Anyway, yes, I'm interested to see how the theories and practices can apply.

And roca, 'every marginal gain' is a gain nonetheless. You're on Weight Weenies, where we specialize in marginal gains (or marginal losses per gram, which becomes a cummulative loss). SKY and GB's whole cycling regimin is based on 'marginal gains' (whatever they may be or we may later find out about).

Marginal gains count.

And what works for monks might work for competitive individuals. They will put themselves through physical tests that most people on this site would struggle to do, largely driven by the internal. They'll run for hundreds of kms barefoot, they'll run up tall mountains and then return down crawling. They will endure difficult types of training that test not only the physical but also the mental. Can a person combine the inner martial arts with their external capabilities and use them in a competitive fashion? I wonder, and I'm not quick to dismiss it.

Even small children in China (and other parts of Asia) play a game which utilizes these things, it's pretty simple really (and yes, it can be competitive). Two people stand close to each other, feet are between the other person's stance so they overlap, but there is no touching. The goal of the game is to push the other person over without touching them, and it is a matter of understanding your competitions moves then replying by using their force against them. So the practice is there, even small kids do it growing up - I don't believe it should be limited to just this small game or standing on ground, but can be applied in motion over the course of a race/route.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:07 am 
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well chi as i wrote can help some amateur racer improve a bit, but when it comes to day in and day out elite level, it might not be effective at all. however i do see the use of tai chi in disciplines like fencing, or marksmanship and most of the sports where the bulk of the work is being made by the brain. think about athletes that are representatives of their sport specially sports that comcentrate on basic functions, like most of the disciplines of track and field.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:29 am 
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I think it would be effective no matter what level a person may be at.

But, yes, let's just go back to asking about V02 Max, talk about intervals, wattage numbers, weekly training routines and all the usual stuff which seems to just as well be answered by a search instead of a new thread. Let's all avoid the harder questions and dismiss the things we don't (yet) understand. :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:51 am 
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prendrefeu wrote:

-'balance' of your opponents attacks, negating them.
-utilizing internal and external forces as the primary source of power, traditional concepts of just hammering along become secondary.



Coud you maybe clarify these points? What is balancing opponents attacks? What are internal/external forces? Is that like the concept of "energy" used in a lot of new age spirituality?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:18 am 
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As a Jedi I only use my powers for the good of mankind or if it makes me better than everyone else . Many times I have used the force in cycle racing to cause flats , chain breaks etc etc to my rivals and have gone on to a win a well deserved victory.

YOU WILL PUT ALL YOUR MONEY INTO MY PAYPAL ACCOUNT


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:56 am 
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@tcurtbike

1. I'll try, but again I have no idea if this can be used effectively, which is why my buddy and I were inquiring in the first place and why this thread got started. I'd like to explore it a bit more - which will probably take a long, long time - to give answers for certain. In the meantime, while I figure it out on the bike, I was hoping that the collective minds here may know of some examples, riders, or resources that I haven't been able to find.
2. Off the top of my head, it may be both in short-term (counter attacks or riding in such a way to neutralize those attacks) and long-term in using another rider's style to your advantage over the route or stages.
3. Internal -> psychological, mental fatigue, mental games, strength, non-verbal communication (the latter verges on external)
External -> placement of others at the time of movement (not necessarily drafting, but you could include drafting as one type of involvement), knowledge of factors beyond the rider's control***
4. .... sort of, but not as shallow as the 'new age' folk have taken to promoting it for their own business purposes.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Resources loosely related, but not at all "bike" or "competition" related:
If you are interested in the teachings of the Ch'an (Zen) lineage of Bodhidharma=>Shaolin=>Hui Neng (The Sixth Patriarch) you can contact one of the Yi Guan Dao temples in Hacienda Heights or El Monte.

Here is a link to the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch:
http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Clubs/buddhi ... ntent.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"My preaching to you now may be likened to the seasonable rain which brings moisture to a vast area of land. The Buddha-nature within you may be likened to the seed which, being moistened by the rain, will grow rapidly. He who carries out my instructions will certainly attain Bodhi. He who follows my teaching will certainly attain the superb fruit (of Buddhahood). Listen to my stanza:--

Buddha-seeds latent in our mind
Will sprout upon the coming of the all-pervading rain.

The 'flower' of the doctrine having been intuitively grasped,

One is bound to reap the fruit of Enlightenment.

Then he added, "The Dharma is non-dual and so is the mind. The Path is pure and above all forms. I warn you not to use those exercises for meditation on quietude or for keeping the mind a blank. The mind is by nature pure, so there is nothing for us to crave for or give up. Do your best, each of you, and go wherever circumstances lead."


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Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:10 pm 


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