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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:37 pm 
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Spoke with Mr. Acquarone last week, he was pretty stoked on the Galibier stage. So am I. Cenis is not steep, but damn long. Coming up to the Galibier from the valley on that side is exceptionally nasty. 150km will mean lots of fireworks. Should be a fantastic stage.

On the other subject, disliking a rider for being a doper is completely separate from enjoying their style, and enjoying watching them race. In their time, those performances were mesmerizing. That I see them differently now does not change how I remember seeing them then.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:05 am 
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fa63 wrote:
I don't understand why people keep romanticising about the achievements of dopers...


So you have no admiration for the achievements of Merckx?


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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:05 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:55 am 
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i guess no mercks, no lance, no basso nor kloden, no coppi...


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:38 am 
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Huge wrote:
So you have no admiration for the achievements of Merckx?


It is funny you asked; I was actually thinking about exactly that earlier today after I posted my response about Pantani. Let me just say, my stance on that topic is changing as well. I have no doubt he doped. I think blood doping was around during his time, and who knows if he was doing that or not. On the other hand, he (and other riders of his era) didn't have access to EPO given that his career ended in the late 1970s (my understanding is that EPO came into prominence in the mid to late 1980s) and to me EPO seems to be a turning point in doping. But I am still battling with myself whether or not that any of this makes it any better (and I am not sure it does). And the fact that he seems to be siding with Lance on his issues is not helping me have a more favorable opinion of him.

So the answer is, I don't admire Merckx as much as I used to.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:45 am 
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VNTech wrote:
On the other subject, disliking a rider for being a doper is completely separate from enjoying their style, and enjoying watching them race. In their time, those performances were mesmerizing. That I see them differently now does not change how I remember seeing them then.


Don't you think their "style" was a function of the state of their body? In other words, do you think he would attack all the time like he did if he wasn't doped up?

The latter stages of his career to me are more indicative of the real type of rider Pantani was, without the help of PEDs (that is, good but not great).

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:03 am 
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Absolutely. But see the last bit of my post. I was mesmerized then, and it had an impact on me. That impact and enjoyment they brought me in the past is not negated by my current views (which are decidedly more harsh, for obvious reasons.) I don't go watch the old races anymore except occasionally to get a good laugh at how unreal it all was, so my opinion of them now is held in an entirely different sphere (that of their person and character rather than their entertainment factor).

In other words, I thought Pantani was great. Today, I don't think so highly of anybody in that generation. But that doesn't change the pleasure I got out of seeing him ride back then.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:05 am 
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fa63 wrote:
Huge wrote:
So you have no admiration for the achievements of Merckx?


It is funny you asked; I was actually thinking about exactly that earlier today after I posted my response about Pantani. Let me just say, my stance on that topic is changing as well. I have no doubt he doped. I think blood doping was around during his time, and who knows if he was doing that or not. On the other hand, he (and other riders of his era) didn't have access to EPO given that his career ended in the late 1970s (my understanding is that EPO came into prominence in the mid to late 1980s) and to me EPO seems to be a turning point in doping. But I am still battling with myself whether or not that any of this makes it any better (and I am not sure it does). And the fact that he seems to be siding with Lance on his issues is not helping me have a more favorable opinion of him.

So the answer is, I don't admire Merckx as much as I used to.



I hate to say it, but the "clean" rider is a new thing in the world of cycling. EPO made it get out of control. But before EPO there were dozens of products that would boost performance and basically no testing or deterrents for using them. The fact is, these riders made the sport what it is today - regardless of whether they doped. They made races interesting and brought attention to a sport that was in effect a niche sport. I honestly don't understand this crucify the dopers mentality that so many people seem to have. I'm not condoning doping at all, they cheated, move on.


But back to the subject at hand. The Galibier should be very interesting, especially if they go all the way to the top.In the 2011 Tour the snow didn't even melt off the last few kilometers until a few weeks before the stage so I expect it to be quite nasty in May.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:23 am 
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^ well said Ghost234.

I found this list prety interesting:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_do ... in_cycling


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:48 am 
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Woah this thread got derailed pretty quick. This is why we can't have nice things... :(

I reckon this will be a great stage. I like that the tours have been featuring shorter mountain stages too, mixes things up a bit.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:09 am 
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djconnel wrote:
I couldn't even lift it!

I'm taking this with a grain of salt, I've seen your arms :lol:

As for the stage, all for it. God I love the Giro!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:29 am 
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djconnel wrote:
BTW, I saw Menchov's Giro trophy @ Interbike last week: I couldn't even lift it! It's made of lead, I was told.



Menchov must be a bodybuilder too
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:06 pm 
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djconnel wrote:
I couldn't even lift it!


Maybe you could not lift it because it was affixed to the table by bolts! :lol: :lol:

All those people that posted about the past great riders who doped. You know by now that all the past great riders doped: name one that did not. Since all them doped to different levels, efficiency and expected results get over it. You don't want to get over it? That is your prerogative and it's not a problem for me and that is all that counts on this forum right? It's all about how Stella perceives you, am I right? Yes I am.
I perceive the you are an ignorant, pompous arm-chair-cyclist who pisses excellence in the morning before delivering your cacophonous message from a top of your throne of cycling justice. That's how you perceive them with no bearing or knowledge of what type of situation they were in. I am a bit more sensitive as to why a cyclist dopes these days than I was in the past. I have grown up a bit on this subject. I'm not glorifying or justifying doping here but I am putting things into perspective from their side of the fence.
In reality each one of them tried to keep up with their competition so that maybe they can keep their job for next years contract. You guys keep forgetting that pro cycling is a job that a cyclist makes his living at it. They do not ride for fun. It's not fun and games. It may seem that way but it really is not.

We'll see what the next batch of talent brings. How will today's Vangarderen, Kittel, and all of the promising 20 year old riders fare against the "new reality of cycling" what ever that may be in the next 10 years. :noidea:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:14 am 
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that kind of even came out with a little tough italian accent. the second paragraph was kind of inflamatory.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:49 pm 
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I used to admire Jimi Hendrix.




Then, I found out that all his music was just due to performance enhancing drugs. :shock:


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Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:49 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:56 pm 
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Good one Rick. :lol:

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