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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:54 pm 
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Indeed, and regardless of what you think of Kimmage, the UCI ´s gone for the easiest target on the food chain (or at least the one with less cash) and so that is worth a defence fund.
Me, I think they are all a confederacy of Dunces and Im going to spend my money on bikes, chicks and booze and Ill waste the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:54 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:48 pm 
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They are also going after Floyd who like Kimmage is a former pro who doped and has subsequently shed much light on the subject. Should we support his legal efforts too? Slippery slope in my view...


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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:02 pm 
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2002SaecoReplica wrote:
Do you believe Paul Kimmage to be lyin, cheating scum?
When he provides the evidence to back up his claims, then I'll pass judgement in his favour. Until then it's just soundbites; and he loves hearing himself talk; so yes I have a negative opinion of him. People like Bassons have my respect, not Kimmage.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:33 pm 
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KB wrote:
2002SaecoReplica wrote:
Do you believe Paul Kimmage to be lyin, cheating scum?
When he provides the evidence to back up his claims, then I'll pass judgement in his favour. Until then it's just soundbites; and he loves hearing himself talk; so yes I have a negative opinion of him. People like Bassons have my respect, not Kimmage.


The "there's no evidence" ad nauseum thing...what's the threshold before there's now enough evidence?

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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:48 pm 
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No idea, I'm not a lawyer. You can take whatever view on it, but you don't know whether the UCI is corrupt or not. You take a judgement but you don't know; neither do I.

What is proven is that the press in general, in the UK anyway, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Every day, people take legal action against newspapers for telling lies (libel / slander). But they are normally the people who can afford it. The ordinary man in the street doesn't stand a chance and the media knows it.

So, any organisation that's accused of corruption is bound to defend itself for something that's a serious allegation. So far as the UCI are concerned they strike me as being a disorganised rabble. But that's only my 'opinion'.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:24 pm 
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KB wrote:
No idea, I'm not a lawyer. You can take whatever view on it, but you don't know whether the UCI is corrupt or not. You take a judgement but you don't know; neither do I.

What is proven is that the press in general, in the UK anyway, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Every day, people take legal action against newspapers for telling lies (libel / slander). But they are normally the people who can afford it. The ordinary man in the street doesn't stand a chance and the media knows it.

So, any organisation that's accused of corruption is bound to defend itself for something that's a serious allegation. So far as the UCI are concerned they strike me as being a disorganised rabble. But that's only my 'opinion'.


So, "[T]here are known knowns; there are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that, we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know, we don't know". Am I getting that right, or have I missed something?

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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:01 pm 
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Maybe you should ask Donald Rumsfeld.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:20 pm 
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petepeterson wrote:
They are also going after Floyd who like Kimmage is a former pro who doped and has subsequently shed much light on the subject. Should we support his legal efforts too? Slippery slope in my view...

You have a point about the suit against Floyd. But I don't see him in remotely the same category with Kimmage. For one thing, Kimmage was not by any means a systematic doper (it's been a while since I read the book, but wasn't it only a couple of times?), he never lied about it, never wrote a book claiming he rode clean, nor raised money for his defense on false pretenses.

To the contrary, he's been calling the profession on it's dirty practices since the get go.

petepeterson wrote:
For what it's worth I own Rough Ride so there's my contribution to the Free Kimmage Fund.

Which, apparently, puts you way ahead of Hein Verbruggen. (See the link below.)

J-Nice wrote:
The UCI aren't going after the newspaper Kimmage worked for. They are going after him as an individual. In cases of libel, this is not the way it should go down.

Also, they have no plans on suing Tyler Hamilton or Daniel Coyle, who stated Armstrong and Bruyneel in cahoots with the UCI made the positive dope test during the Tour de Swisse go away.

It sounds like intimidation to me: Go after the weak link with the least resources.

For those who haven't read the Verbruggen interview:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/verbruggen-wont-take-legal-action-against-hamilton

People seem to be responding. The fund has doubled since yesterday.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:04 am 
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KB wrote:
No idea, I'm not a lawyer. You can take whatever view on it, but you don't know whether the UCI is corrupt or not. You take a judgement but you don't know; neither do I.


1. Name one international sport Union that isn't plagued by corruption.
2. What about a large cash gift of an active cycling is legit for you?

Or how about these statements about and from Sylvia Schenk:

Quote:
Alarmed by what she saw as clear violations of the UCI Constitution, Schenk filed a complaint against the UCI with the International Olympic Committee's Ethics Commission in late June about Pat McQuaid's current status with the UCI. Head of the UCI's Road Commission, McQuaid is outgoing UCI President Hein Verbruggen's choice as a successor.


Quote:
"In addition, there is an unpleasant culture of gift-making. As far as concrete candidacies to host events are concerned, there is a framework of rules at the UCI, but other than that there was a great willingness to take gifts for granted. My former colleagues of the UCI management committee told me, for example, that after the nomination of McQuaid as successor to Hein Verbruggen they discovered a bottle of fine Irish whiskey in their hotel rooms. I hadn't voted for McQuaid so I didn't receive anything - but I don't drink whiskey anyway..."


Now if look at Kimmage as a journalist and not a judge I'd say he should be allowed to say the UCI is corrupt.

But hey, don't let the facts and evidence confuse you :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:29 am 
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'There's a gentleman thats going round, turning the joint upside down, paul kimmage, yeah yeah yeah yeah'.(Kid Creole and the Cocoanuts)


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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:12 pm 
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Franklin wrote:
Now if look at Kimmage as a journalist and not a judge I'd say he should be allowed to say the UCI is corrupt.

But hey, don't let the facts and evidence confuse you :roll:
You're the one who's confused. He's being judged for comments he made and presumably he will provide the 'evidence' and 'facts' to support his allegations in a court of law. Doesn't matter whether he's a journalist or not.

I've no problem with nailing Verbruggen (especially) or McQuaid, but they have the right to defend themselves, but I suppose that doesn't matter to you because you've already made up your mind that they are guilty. Send them to the gallows.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:45 pm 
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What kind of "evidence" and "facts" would Kimmage have?
His interviews from the same rides that USADA interviewed?
Interviews from the rider of old who no longer matter?
Does Kimmage have special access to evidence that he can present in a court of law?

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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:20 pm 
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You're right, Stella. It's people like Kimmage who are the problem. Just ask Pat McQuaid.

Going after journalists is how you're going to do anything about doping and corruption in cycling.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcquaid ... mmage-case

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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:43 pm 
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If Kimmage is right about the UCI then he'd have little to fear from this legal action. And the publications who printed his work would stand by him...right?

If not, regardless of how right he is, if he can't withstand a minor matter like this he's in the wrong game. There are far bigger sharks.

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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:34 pm 
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stella-azzurra wrote:
What kind of "evidence" and "facts" would Kimmage have? Does Kimmage have special access to evidence that he can present in a court of law?

I think that's for the courts to decide, not me or you. I would hazard a guess that Verbruggen and McQuaid will get damages of 1 Swiss Franc. I think Millar's right that it's ill advised, but Kimmage has crossed the UCI's Rubicon and they'll all have their day in court to make the lawyers richer.


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 Post subject: Re: Support Paul Kimmage
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:34 pm 


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