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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:33 am 
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Madfiber just released (I think, never seen it on their site before) this study on their wheels in comparison with its close competitors https://madfiber.com/sites/default/files/MadFiberTech.pdf, and it seems like a great read because of the relevant comparison and the fact that a biomechanics professor specialising in cycling biomechanics analysis is attaching his name to the study. I did a search on Jim Martin's published articles (in peer-reviewed journals) and they are mostly focused on efficiency studies on the cyclist and of the bike too, seems very credible. Enjoy!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:12 am 
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It's very interesting but the conclusion I draw based on these results is that there is no real difference between the wheels for amateur riders. And it's unfortunate that the paper did not specify which model years they were testing.

Yes the maths does show a 6 second difference at the top of Alpe d'Huez, but we could get the same difference through adding 10psi to the tyres, throwing out the extra water bottle, wearing a tighter jersey, doing an extra training session...


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:17 am 
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Whilst I'm also not that bothered by all the marketing that gets put out about wheels saving you xx seconds or xx watts...


Surely the whole point is that, yes sure you could make marginal gains elsewhere - but if you've already done all of those things, the wheels will gain you a little extra..


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:26 pm 
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I'd like to see MadFiber do a similar study, but on crosswind stability. They should "use" riders of several different weights in the study. Also, vary the "gustiness" (how rapidly wind changes in speed and/or direction). Then again, the results might not be so favorable for MadFiber, so they might not be inclined to publish them.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:38 pm 
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tomb8555 wrote:
Whilst I'm also not that bothered by all the marketing that gets put out about wheels saving you xx seconds or xx watts...


Surely the whole point is that, yes sure you could make marginal gains elsewhere - but if you've already done all of those things, the wheels will gain you a little extra..


Yup, the wheels could gain you an entire 2 seconds the next time you climb Alp D'Huez. Oh wait, you don;t regularly run intervals up and down Alp D'Huez???

I think what these report reinforce is the reality that the differences are effectively ZERO for all but the absolutely most elite of riders, of which NONE of us qualify. Your time will vary much more based on whether you take a nice morning poo, have a "good hair day" or whether you skip the gloves for the aero advantage.


In the USA everyone is poor and sits around passing laws that benefit millionaires- because some part of them thinks that one day that will be them.
I think this is the same sad phenomenon with hobbyists and these wheels.

I own Lightweights personally, but that is because I like the looks, the stiffness and the ride. I would not have gotten them thinking they make me "faster," I got them because they make me cooler.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:45 pm 
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reggiebaseball wrote:
I own Lightweights personally ... I got them because they make me cooler.
Well, they didn't work. :beerchug: :welcome:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:20 pm 
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reggiebaseball wrote:
I think what these report reinforce is the reality that the differences are effectively ZERO for all but the absolutely most elite of riders, of which NONE of us qualify. Your time will vary much more based on whether you take a nice morning poo, have a "good hair day" or whether you skip the gloves for the aero advantage.


By your argument, any discussion on the advantages of certain choices of equipment will be futile as there are x number of variables to consider that might make those weight/power savings 'invalid' in some ways - not the most constructive comment in a discussion certainly.

It is not very often that wheel manufacturers take the effort to do comparison with their close competitors that will help people make their decision on choice of wheels, and when you are comparing different high-end wheels which have about the same rim depth, how much do you think their performance can differ by anyway? The interesting thing to me is to find out which one might be marginally better, in which areas etc, no matter how small that difference might be. I got my Madfiber for the bling factor too, but it's fun to read this all the same.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:46 pm 
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Another "interesting" study done by some person. Not saying the numbers aren't right, but they are heavily putting much of their confidence and selling point in the inertia aspect.

Aerodynamically speaking, has any "sprint" ever started at 25mph? No...thus, inertia will play a larger role. But when a sprint really is starting 30-35+mph depending on the course/leadouts etc...inertia obviously doesn't make a bit of difference. If so, Cav would be losing all of these sprints on his clunky 404 FCs with DuraAce hubs.

The inertia issue is starting to gain some steam, a few builders are now putting the nipples on the inside next to the hub.

Climbing this would be an issue, but still not enough.

I personally think ride characteristics of the wheel is very important. I'm biased because I have 303 FCs, but there is a night/day difference of stability between those in wind gusts and cross winds compared to my 50mm deep V carbon wheels. They are very stable, you don't feel like you are getting blown around with wind etc...they are doing what they are designed to do, and do it pretty darn well. And since you can get a set $1000 less than the Mad Fibers...kind of hard to deny Zipp their just desserts.

Also, not sure how they came to 22mm for the tire width? I believe Zipp used 23mm and says that is the best width for the wider rim of the FCs, and used 23mm for their aero testing?

Anyway, for a full carbon wheel, I would only want to own the Mavic Cosmic Carbone Ultimates personally. Those are proven to run great everywhere, sprints, climbing etc..stiffness fanastic. Descent aero and the inertia issue is also dealt with.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:15 pm 
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The drag data looks suspicious... Most drag curves from independently published data shows a significant "drop" for the 404 FC between 8 and 15 degrees of yaw whereas in the MF data it is distinctly flat.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Are their any independent studies comparing Madfiber to say Zipp 404FC and Enve SMART 6.7? Its hard to find any real aero data on Madfiber besides that PDF on their website. It seems like there would more data considering the wheels have been in circulation for quite some time.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:41 pm 
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reggiebaseball wrote:
I think what these report reinforce is the reality that the differences are effectively ZERO for all but the absolutely most elite of riders, of which NONE of us qualify.


Wouldn't the differences (in terms of time saved) typically be bigger at lower speeds?
But of course, to the casual rider it doesn't make a difference if you ride a set distance 1 minute faster or slower.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:56 pm 
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The majority of all these wheels will be bought be by those of us that have every other marginal gain to improve prior to tech, eg weight, fitness, tactics etc. They're all nice wheels in their own right, will they be the difference in winning the club sprint points or races?...probably not. Of course, given the option I would sell my kids on ebay to have any of em!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:48 pm 
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Independent data and the difference in performance for products is what it is.

The degree of ignorance to that information for lots of chat room folks is what it is too...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:25 am 
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Zigmeister wrote:
A
The inertia issue is starting to gain some steam, a few builders are now putting the nipples on the inside next to the hub.

ALA 7700 Dura Ace... how old is that design?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:43 pm 
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CharlesM wrote:
Independent data and the difference in performance for products is what it is.

The degree of ignorance to that information for lots of chat room folks is what it is too...

I totally agree


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