Lightweight by CarbonSports: wheel registration / ServiceUp

[CarbonSportsGmbH]

Hi everybody,

as there very often are (partially) false ideas, what "registration" of Lightweight wheels means, I'd like to give you some latest information on that issue:
Registration

• it does not matter if the wheels had been registered before or not. We have dropped the 8-weeks-timeframe for that some months ago. Now everybody can register his wheels, no matter if he is the first or third owner, no matter when they had been purchased.
• with registration, you get the right to get CrashReplacement, and e.g. you can give us notice if the wheels had been stolen
• to check if the wheels are registered we only need to know the chipnumbers and so can check if they are or not. So - if you provide us the numbers (mailto: support[at]lightweight.info) - we'll check that.
• a third owner has neither advantage nor disadvantage if they had been registered by the first owner.

ServiceUp

• a ServiceUp-request includes registration!
• ServiceUp can be alienated to third person if the wheels are sold
• ServiceUp must be applied by the first owner within 5 days after purchase
• when wheels with ServiceUp are sold we recommend to leave a short message to support[at]lightweight.info with the old and new owner's personal data so we can change registration. As an alternative, the new owner can use the re-registration form on our website to provide us this information.
• to ensure quick handling of a ServiceUp: a) ServiceUp must be applied to CarbonSports Germany via the online form on our website. b) When there is a problem with your wheel, first contact our service department! They will organize a pick up of the wheel(s). Do not bring them to your LBS... this will in most cases elongate and complicate handling unnecessarily.

For further information feel free to visit our homepage!

[CarbonSportsGmbH]

As the following thread "Pair of Lightweight Standard C's - 2011 model . Brand New." is closed I'll post a few informations concerning the TESTRIDER wheels here:

• TESTRIDER-wheels are not intended for normal sale.
• they are part of a concept to support dealers, so they can provide wheels to their customers for testrides.
• TESTRIDER-wheels are NOT allowed for ServiceUp!
• TESTRIDER-wheels can only be (re-)registered to a customer when the shop decides to sell them after the contractual period of two years.

In general: if you have wheels you are not sure about, simply provide us the chipnumbers and we can have a look if they e.g. are reported as stolen, when they were built and so on...

[TMK001]

Hey Andreas,

Just a quick question... how do we get our chip details - maybe send out serial numbers with the wheels on a card like you did with the Obermayer Golds?

I got a set of Lightweight Black Ed and Track Ed and both didn't come with details.. I never worried as I have my own private coverage, but I would have liked to know how to go about finding the serial number info on them.

Cheers,

Todd

[sungod]

when i got mine, the (german) retailer emailed me the chip numbers as soon as they received the wheels, so i had the numbers a few days before the wheels reached me in the uk

each wheel had a sticker on the rim, and a tag on a spoke, both printed with the chip number, the stickers on the rims peel off and fit the spaces inside the back page of the manual

[CarbonSportsGmbH]

The chipnumbers usually can be found at three (!) places:

• on the box, together with chipnumber as barcode
• attached as sticker in the rim bed of the wheel
• attached as sticker to one of the spokes (intended for the manual, last page)

So, if you really got NO numbers with you wheels, someone must have spent some time to remove them...

[HammerTime2]

So chip number is identical to "product number". Perhaps people not realizing that is the cause of some of the confusion.

[WeightySteve]

It's not TOO difficult to loose them totally..

I took the spoke stickers off and stuck them inside the box so they would not get lost (my one mistake was made here, instead of sticking them in the manual)

At some point in the future, I had to return a single wheel for inspection, so I sent it in the double wheel box.

it got returned to me in a different (single wheel) box, so in one swoop, lost 2 versions of the chip numbers

The inner rim stickers wear our pretty quick (on clinchers at least) to become unreadable

Fortunately I have them in my email, but I can see how they could be lost without any real effort.

[CarbonSportsGmbH]

[...](my one mistake was made here, instead of sticking them in the manual) [...] lost 2 versions of the chip numbers [...]

One more reason to register the wheels ASAP!
If registered, you can email me at any time to ask which wheels are registered on you...

[WeightySteve]

So, I have been reluctant to air this in public, but it is bit of a demonstration of what exactly Service-Up DOESN'T give you!

To cut a long store short if you don't want to plough through it... My freehub body bearings went after only 6 months, I had hoped (expected, possibly) that the easiest fix would be for a replacement freehub body under guarantee/service-up without any need for excessive postage (not to mention the carbon footprint) to German, which I was charged with unsuspectingly the last, and only, time I wanted CS to check out a query with one of my wheels after I received them, but before they were ever ridden.

So, instead of risking a £200+ charge, which I really cannot fork out at the moment, I've fixed it myself with a standard (slightly heavier) DT-Swiss freehub body, and learned a good bit more about the inner workings of my freehub (never took one off before now). But I had expected a bit more from CS before this incident, and especially after they showed me how to destroy my freehub body shell with a screwdriver!

Email thread follows, for illustration/responses. Maybe I expected too much

Hello,

I have owned my Standard C Gen III’s since March this year, so they are now 6 months old. (Ridden approx 4000mile).

On todays ride I could hear some chain “noise” on the rear cassette. Thinking maybe my rear derailiure needed re-alignment (Dura Ace Di2), I looked at the problem, but actually I have found that the entire cassette was “loose”. After taking off the cassette, actually it is the freehub body itself that is loose. It can be easily “rocked” on the hub.

Is this something that i can tighten up with normal maintenance procedure? I have little understanding on the internals of a rear wheel hub, and I have never removed a freehub body before so excuse me if this is a simple maintenance procedure I should already be able to do at home.

If the problem is actually with the wheel and needs returning for repair, I cannot afford postage costs, but if the wheel is at fault, I would you expect to pay for this shipping?

Wheelset chips XXXXXXXX & XXXXXXXXX (removed) ( I forget which one is Front and Rear, so I include both here, but the problem is only with the rear wheel as described ).

Thanks.

------

Hello steve ,

if the problem is on the freehub body, we should see it in the company.
we can give no guarantee if you do it yourself .
Is it possible to send me an picture from the damage ?

If you have further questions please feel free to contact us.

Yours sincerely

The Service Team
Carbon Sports GmbH

------

Hello,

Please find video attached. I think this demonstrates the problem well...

( http://s1154.photobucket.com/albums/p52 ... GP1008.mp4 )


Steve

------

Hello Steve,

yes the problem ist he freehub body.
To change this is easy. Please see the video attach.
The price for an new shimano body ca. 120 ,- EUR + shipping.

( http://s1154.photobucket.com/albums/p52 ... G_2173.mp4 )

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Kind regards,
Martin Kiechle

------

Hello Martin,

Ok, mine does not pop off as easy as this video? In fact, the screwdriver broke off a tiny peice of the body when i attempted it (see pic) and i did not apply a lot of force? (This is why i do not like to mess with my £1+K wheel!)

( http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p52 ... GP1010.jpg )

Is there a step before this?

Also how long should a freehub body last? My shimano C24 wheels has over 15K mile and this problem has never happend.

Thanks
Steve

------

( Now no replies for a week. During which time I send the further emails... )

------

1:-

Ok so I have taken wheel to lbs. They removed the freehub body, (unlike your video, he removed the end of the hub, and then removed the body easily) and now he will replace the bearings inside it, which have been completely disintegrated (causing the original problem).

Possibly he will replace the freehub body itself due to the slight damage I have caused with my attempted removal, but maybe this is not a massive problem in reality, if there is no open gap and no chance of contamination into the (new) bearings, it might be ok to leave it how it is now.

2:-

Hello again,

Re this problem. Does this 120Euro include the bearings/end/spring cap etc. Or is it just the Freehub body itself?

After removal of the old one, it is apparent that the bearings have been worn out which is causing the movement visible in the video I sent earlier.

Also, how much is Shipping to the UK?

Thanks
Steve

3:-

Hello,

Why do you not reply to my email any longer?

I have now had no usable rear wheel for 2 weeks. I have a broken freehub body, and the bearings are destroyed in the hub after only 6 months.

Even emails are no longer replied to, and my email are no longer replied to.

I have paid for service-up and I do not feel this is great service at the moment.


Very unhappy. Please help!

Steve

4: -

Also, this email (below) was not replied to (sent Yesterday).

I am unhappy that I even need to pay Euro 120 + shipping for something that has not lasted for even 6 months, but even when I ask the question below, I get no reply.

So still I cannot use my wheel now for 2 weeks (and counting up)

Once again, "Service-UP" not great at the moment!

Please help me use this wheel again.

Steve

-----------

(After 9 days, a reply, turns out Martin was not at office that particular week)

-----------

Dear Steve,

sorry for the late post, but I was not in the office last week.
we can make in your case only one.
Either you go to a bike shop in your near and let's make it, or you send the wheel to us to friedrichshafen.

( I am not entirely sure what this means, as the grammar is quite bad, but anyway I have already worked out the problem and found the part I need, where to get it cheapest and how to fit it again )

-----------

Hello,

Ok so you are out of office last week. Everyone has time from the office I understand, but no-one picks up when you are away?

Anyway... I can now fit the freehub body myself, my local shop showed me the method. But I ask again, after only 6 months and the bearings in the freehub have been eroded away to nothing, am I not covered by guarantee for a replacement freehub body free of charge?

Surely it is not normal to have to replace every 6 months. My bike shop says the bearings have been dead for a long time (I only noticed recently when shifting became sloppy), but there must have been an early fault with this freehub body, so am I not entitled for a replacement with no charge?

I can fit it myself, so now you just have to post the freehub body, instead of me returning the entire wheel to you.

Steve

------------

Dear Steve,

if we are to replace the body then you have to send it to us.
We will review it here, and then decide what we can do.

If you have further questions please feel free to contact us.

--------


(And my final response, so far, but with a fixed wheel and tired of the conversation that is going no-where...)

Ok, so this last information will not help me

You say, I must send the wheel to you, then you will decide IF you will charge me? What if you decide to charge me?

I already said I cannot afford to pay postage, so then you will hold my wheel to randsom until I can afford to pay for the repair and postage? Euro 100 postage + Euro 120 for freehub body? Possibly Euro £220 before I see my wheel again?

That may be 3 months before I have funds to be able to pay!

The fact is (as you can see in the original video I made) that the freehub body bearings are destroyed and you know after less than 6 months (As per my registration shows). I have not used the wheel incorrectly ( I ride my bike, and wash it every day), or taken the wheel apart, so what do you need to examine? The bearings in the freehub body have eroded away.

Also, you showed me video with a screwdriver to remove freehub body, and when I applied this technique I caused damage to the freehub body shell itself, so this is now unusable as I showed you in the picture I sent. So my LBS shows me how to actually remove it without causing further damage. (He did NOT try to use a SCREWDRIVER force it off!!!)

So, to fix this, I have already paid £51 for a Shimano Freehub body from Chain-reaction cycles. http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=28830

This has arrived and is fitted, and the wheel is now usable again.

But my assurance with you is highly affected. From my video you could see the freehub body bearins was destroyed, you already said this, so it would have been a simple thing to post me a free replacement for me to fit.

Instead we have 3 week email conversation and in the end I must fix it myself or loose my wheel until I can afford to pay 4x the price it cost me to fix at home?

I hope you can you see why my happiness is zero, and also why I feel I need to escalate these emails to a higher department in Lightweight (mail@lightweight.info), so my customer un-satisfaction can be heard by more than just yourself.

Let me hope I do not have to rely on any future service if this is how it is handled

Steve

[CarbonSportsGmbH]

Hi Steve,

although I totally understand your anger I can't sanction to see these (private!) mails in public. Prior you could have contacted e.g. me (via email) to investigate what went/goes wrong... But let's become constructive:
Reading through all the mails I see many mistakes - and most of them on our side.
- The only thing you could have done better is to declare from the start that you have ServiceUp for these wheels. I can't find this information in any of the earlier mails?
- We'll have some serious internal discussions on this issue and on the faults that were made.

To ease the situation, I'll do what should have done (my personal point of view!) from the beginning on: I'll send you a new freehub body. Am i right that you can assamble it by yourself or at the lbs? So you'll only need the body itself, the ratchets, springs and the end cap are ok?
Please send me a short email where to ship the stuff.
Can you send me the defective freehub body, so we can have a look why it weared out so fast?

p.s.: If you are the one Steve I believe you to be, then XXXXXXD95E is the front wheel...

[WeightySteve]

Hi Andreas,

First, I am not angry. I understand why you might want these mail to be kept private, but really there is nothing here that is classified. The mails tell the story as it happened in black and white, with no point of view cast. I didn't want to just "rant" with my side of the story.

And indeed I really am not complaining now, I posted above because I assumed that is how customer queries were handled, and so was just describing my experience of what Service UP didn't seem to include. I realize it covers complete crash protection/replacement but for minor queries/faults such as this it didn't seem like there was any cover as such.

I had also included mail@ in the final 4 emails, and no response came from anyone else, so basically I had given up and fixed it myself as this was the cheapest method.

As for Service-UP i did say it was included in one of the mails later on

I have paid for service-up and I do not feel this is great service at the moment.

I would also assume that from the chip numbers this would be instantly detected, which is probably why I didn't mention it in the first mail.

Anyway more important than a replacement hub, as the wheel is now riding again as I mentioned, (yes D95E is end of 1 of my chip numbers (front! thanks ), and yes I have now learned the correct way to remove and re-fit a ratchet, spring, freehub body, end-cap, spring etc) is that this has highlighted some breakdown with repair/service communications, and I know from this forum that this is not how Carbonsports appear to operate. So, had I not posted above the entire email chain, would anything have happened, and would anything have been discussed there at the factory?

Probably not. I had closed the book as of my last direct e-mail, and went out for a ride this afternoon to "wash" it away.

So for that reason I don't feel too bad for my posting, because nothing would have changed if I had not, and the next person with a similar problem might have encountered the same thing I did.

[CarbonSportsGmbH]

[...]is that this has highlighted some breakdown with repair/service communications, and I know from this forum that this is not how Carbonsports appear to operate. So, had I not posted above the entire email chain, would anything have happened, and would anything have been discussed there at the factory?[...]

Steve,
you can believe me or not, but I saw your last mail yesterday morning on my colleagues screen and we were discussing your issue.
As we're always keen to have good customer support, we always take issues like that very seriously. But: "Audiatur et altera pars"...we wanted to give Martin the chance to explain his point of view. THAT is something you prevented with your posting above.

Reading through the email chain you posted, you are the "good guy" and Service is the "bad guy"... this might be right, but I'm quite sure there are some hidden points that don't come out with the emails you posted... but maybe they would enlighten the whole story a little bit.

[...]and so was just describing my experience of what Service UP didn't seem to include. I realize it covers complete crash protection/replacement but for minor queries/faults such as this it didn't seem like there was any cover as such.[...]

From my point of view we don't need ServiceUp for this issue:

• either the freehub body bearings are worn out without somebody ignoring maintenace instructions, then it's a case of legal warranty or at least accomodation
• or it's defective due to ignored maintenance instructions or other unauthorisized manipulations, then not even ServiceUp will help you!
• And whatever point matches, there still are the "terms and conditions": "CarbonSports shall assume no warranty for damage or losses attributable to unsuitable or improper use, incorrect assembly or putting into use by the customer or a third party, as well as to normal wear and tear." the one hand and the "ServiceUp conditions": "The service commitment excludes damage [...] Attributable to normal wear and tear (e.g. of the brake track area or bearings)" on the other hand.

[WeightySteve]

Alright, I am beginning to have de-ja-vu now about this, only the conversation is on the forum not on email. Good guy/bad guy, is irrelevant btw.

I just wanted the wheel usable and it's riding again, for me that's when I thought it was over, and so posted my "story".

Now I am in the position where I must put across my point of view.

So finally from me, Yes, Service-UP was of no help here, I realize standard registration/warranty was supposed to be the solution. But maybe I thought also having Service-UP would be reflected with a bit of "extra" help/speed in the fix. (You also said yourself in the first reply I should have stated I had Service-UP in the first mail, but why would it matter given what you just said?)

If there are hidden points, they are hidden from me too. The emails are all I know.

It is/was obvious the problem, and also obvious the solution, as you have said.

The wear was not "normal" (4k miles/6 months), the hub had never been taken apart and what maintenance rules/usage terms can I break with that can affect freehub body bearings? I ride on the my bike on road only (in rain quite a lot, and through small puddles (< tyre width) but this must be "normal"), and I am not beyond weight limits.

But still I was faced with Postage/Repair bills of around Euro 220+ which was the very first "solution" offered. Then later "we will take a look and decide" approach.

Then depending on what you decided once you had my wheel to look at? If you decided it was my fault once you had my wheel (I would be puzzled as to how it could have been my fault, but how could I argue?) I would have no option, but to pay to get the wheel back, or simply just buy fixed price part £50 to get it surely on the road again.

I had hoped that from my first or second email, I would have been told "ok, we'll send you a new part with no charge as warranty, please send us back the old part for inspection to understand why it has failed so quickly and hopefully prevent future similar failures" (which is exactly how you said you would have responded in your first reply in this thread). That is what I had expected. Not this.

Now, unfortunately the old freehub is not available (one of the bearings literally fell apart into 10000 peices, almost dust, all over the floors soon as the freehub body was removed by the lbs), and the damaged shell (this is a completely seperate topic about screwdriver videos, but not worth going over again) went in the trash after my replacement one was fitted and tested.

So for me its the end, the wheel is back on the bike.

If the other readers of this thread want this conversation deleted, to keep the original topic you posted relevant instead of this messy story that follows, I will happily oblige and delete my posts in the thread this afternoon.

[LionelB]

It's always interesting to read these stories. It would have been faster and easier for CS to just replace the part quickly with no hassle. It keeps the customer happy and avoids this sort of interaction, which for a high end/high priced wheelset is important.

Also I am not sure that I would want the fine print T&C to be pulled out in front of me if I was the customer.

[Mario Jr.]

The customer service issue aside, it's a quite known problem that the DT190 (and now 180) free hub is rubbish. The bearings are so small that they often disintegrate. I have seen it a number of times and yes, the bearings literally turn to dust. The balls are app. 1mm in size. Way too small to be durable.
I guess that Lightweight must have seen this a number of times.
So if you have the DT240 body now, you should have no more problems, as the bearings are sized appropriately.