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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:37 am 
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:mrgreen:
gospastic wrote:
I'm waiting for Zen Cyclery to chime in about how crappy Zipp hubs are. Haven't heard it in a while.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:02 am 
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Location: Eastern Coast of the Baltic Sea
KWalker wrote:
I'm not Zen, but a local shop had a nice pile of cracked Zipps in the other day. My 808's cracked after 5 races and a friend's 303 FCs cracked the first race. All the same place- an impact crack on the rim bed that causes the brake track to crack vertically and bulge out. Somehow they can survive Paris Roubaix, but not the rigors of the relatively nice farm roads we race on.


KWalker, you probably mean something like this?
http://content25-foto.inbox.lv/albums/m ... C-2994.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A Zipp FC808 front 2011, used in 4 very short time trials plus several training rides, in total no more than 400km :) Noticed this when, starting another ride, suddenly felt the front wheel is rubbing the brakes.

Then again, I've got a set of FC404's as well, which have several thousand km's on them; used in mountains, criteriums, some of the worst roads around here and still going quite strong... go figure.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:15 pm 
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lacking a reliable analysis of the current situation, people will look at relatively recent history as a guide. As we all know, manufacturers like to tout their newest as the greatest. However, if we find that the last generation had issues, we might as well discount what they are saying now. The problems may point to a lack of testing, or a design philosophy that values lightness over durability or stability.

Who cares if the piece is made like a swiss watch but still goes out of adjustment every ride, or cracks? Shimano and Campy hubs may be really unsexy, but they really work!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:27 pm 
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WMW wrote:
I agree. I never recommend them (except for TTs)... but some people want them anyway. People with money who don't race and like the look.

If you want the ultimate road racing wheels then you want tubulars... light and aero. If you don't race, then the small aero improvement and usually weight detriment of carbon clinchers over aluminum rims isn't worth the $$$ for most.


I race. I have both the ENVE 6.7 in tubular and clincher versions. I prefer the clincher. I also have the 3.4 in tubular. My 6.7 clincher is my go-to wheel in 9 out of 10 races. But ok, if you say that the tubulars are superior, I need to convince myself that my clinchers suck... :roll:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:15 pm 
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Mario Jr. wrote:
WMW wrote:
I agree. I never recommend them (except for TTs)... but some people want them anyway. People with money who don't race and like the look.

If you want the ultimate road racing wheels then you want tubulars... light and aero. If you don't race, then the small aero improvement and usually weight detriment of carbon clinchers over aluminum rims isn't worth the $$$ for most.


I race. I have both the ENVE 6.7 in tubular and clincher versions. I prefer the clincher. I also have the 3.4 in tubular. My 6.7 clincher is my go-to wheel in 9 out of 10 races. But ok, if you say that the tubulars are superior, I need to convince myself that my clinchers suck... :roll:

:beerchug:


I think people have to try a ride here in Denmark to really understand why we ride clinchers. You would have to spend hours repairing tubulars or have a lot of money to waste on tubbies if you ride here. I use clinchers as it is cheaper for me to change the tube when I have a puncture. Ive added a rimstrip between tyre and tube and that stopped the punctures for now. It greatly increased rollingresistance, but hey, I go faster with rim tape and durano plus tyres, than when I am standing still fixing a flat.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:54 pm 
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I ride carbon tubulars. If I were to ride clinchers I definitely would ride alloy rims. I can't figure out the purpose of these wheels or any carbon clinchers for that matter. No weight advantage, their weight is comparable to alloy rims! They cost at 2.5 times the cost of the best custom alloy rims/hubs. Even if they had no heat issues with these rims, I wont be surprised if latex tubes are very dangerous inside these rims.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:03 am 
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That's a rather weak argument.

Full Carbon Clinchers at 1100g vs. Stans Alpha 340 builds at 1200g. So they're lighter.

now let's talk about depth/aero qualities.
a typical Full Carbon Clincher ~50mm depth is usually around 1300g or so.
a typical Alloy Carbon Clincher at ~50mm depth is usually around... actually, it's not even close, so there go your weight claims.

Reliability of the rim? That's debatable. To some it's ok, to some it isn't. The ultra light alloys are also prone to failure as well (one of my alloy rims failed today during the tabata session, in fact).
Braking? See prior posts in this thread, and also consider that not all CC braking surfaces are equal. Some are vastly superior to others. And, just like alloy rims, the choice of pad makes a significant difference.


Do you want to come up with more reasons against Carbon Clinchers that have not already been discussed in this thread? Previous posts in this thread and many threads before (use the search function) have challenged the common misconceptions with real-world reports.

Have Carbon Clinchers failed in the past? Yes, definitely.
Are they getting better? Yes, definitely.
Will there still be problems in the future? As with anything, anywhere, anytime with any material, yes there will be a few cases here and there. And, inevitably with the sh*thole that the internet can sometimes be, you will tend to hear the one bad story exploded as "the un-questionable truth" despite the positive stories far outnumbering them... and you know why? When things are going well people rarely post about it. When things go bad, people go out of their damn way just to post about it everywhere, and pundits will just continue those stories like old wives sitting around a kitchen table.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:10 am 
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@prendrefeu What factory built carbon clinchers are at 1100g? apart from products by LightWeight. I'm not even talking reliability, I"m talking latex tubes in carbon clincher rims. I have seen horror stories first hand with Enve, Reynolds and Easton.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:13 am 
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Xiamen FarSports offers a pre-built wheelset at 1100g, full carbon clincher.
By all accounts, their rims are reliable and braking is consistent... But the jury is out on the hubs. Spokes are CX-Ray.
Considering the price of the rims, you can combine those with ridiculously light hubs from a boutique source such as FWB and someone could end up with full CC at 1000g.

Oh, and don't use latex tubes in carbon rims. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:53 am 
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eigner wrote:

I think people have to try a ride here in Denmark to really understand why we ride clinchers. You would have to spend hours repairing tubulars or have a lot of money to waste on tubbies if you ride here. I use clinchers as it is cheaper for me to change the tube when I have a puncture. Ive added a rimstrip between tyre and tube and that stopped the punctures for now. It greatly increased rollingresistance, but hey, I go faster with rim tape and durano plus tyres, than when I am standing still fixing a flat.


Raced for two months in Poland on tubular 404s this year and last year. Last year i flatted on old bontrager tires and on some kenda training tire (since they didnt have good replacements at the time). This year went in with Vittoria Corsas, and had no problems whatsoever, and I may say that some roads are just downright terrible. Tires also make a difference.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:53 am 
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metanoize wrote:
I'm not even talking reliability, I"m talking latex tubes in carbon clincher rims. I have seen horror stories first hand with Enve, Reynolds and Easton.


Maybe there's a reason why CarbonSports and Campagnolo say not to use Latex tubes for their carbon clinchers?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:41 pm 
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tdudzik wrote:
eigner wrote:

I think people have to try a ride here in Denmark to really understand why we ride clinchers. You would have to spend hours repairing tubulars or have a lot of money to waste on tubbies if you ride here. I use clinchers as it is cheaper for me to change the tube when I have a puncture. Ive added a rimstrip between tyre and tube and that stopped the punctures for now. It greatly increased rollingresistance, but hey, I go faster with rim tape and durano plus tyres, than when I am standing still fixing a flat.


Raced for two months in Poland on tubular 404s this year and last year. Last year i flatted on old bontrager tires and on some kenda training tire (since they didnt have good replacements at the time). This year went in with Vittoria Corsas, and had no problems whatsoever, and I may say that some roads are just downright terrible. Tires also make a difference.


I had 3 flats on brand new Vittoria open Corsa evo 320tpi in one race. Today i flatted 2 times just on the 20km easy ride to todays race... The tiny flint that are scattered all over the roads in Denmark just cut through tyres like a hot knife through butter!

ANYWAY, this is about the new Zipp 202 Firecrest Carbon Clinchers, which I find suuuuuper cool. I'd love to give them a try - could be my next wheelset!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:38 pm 
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I too think this Zipp202 wheel is very cool. I have been on a pair of 2008 Reynolds DV46C laced to Tune hubs for a long time. They have held up very well and ride nice. Contrary to all the clincher haters out there, I think they work great for what they were designed to do. Be somewhat light weight, have good aero and have good convenience.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:41 pm 
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I'm also considering 202 clincher for my next built. I've been riding a pair of Easton EC90 SL clincher during the last 2 years and they have held up quite well except the clear coat outside of the brake track is flaking off. Well that has nothing to do for being clincher I suppose. To me looking good is very important and aluminum clincher just won't do, well, except Mavic Exalith wheels which everyone hates here.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:39 am 
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prendrefeu wrote:
Xiamen FarSports offers a pre-built wheelset at 1100g, full carbon clincher.


Their 50mm deep carbon clincher wheels are more like 1300g. Unless they have some new rims that I don't know about in the last few months, they don't have any carbon clincher rims that are significantly lighter... those rims are about 405-410g and their low profile carbon clincher rims are in the 385g (claimed) range. 310g carbon clincher rims would be a radical jump.

FarSports has started using a new "Edhub" hub set from Bitex that's about 20g lighter than the previous 211g Bitex rear but that's not going to get you to 1100g. Of course I'd be happy to be wrong... if they have 1100g carbon clinchers I'd probably buy a set.

Here's why I use carbon clinchers- most of the races I do have poor support. You can wait a long time for the single sag vehicle. Some have non-existent support for large parts of the course (hours) and are long enough that you can flat, put in a tube and not lose many places. Carbon clinchers make sense for these races, obviously taking their drawbacks into account. I do have a set of under 1kg FarSports carbon tubulars that I use when appropriate.


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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:39 am 


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