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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:27 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:48 am
Posts: 33
Ok so I have a dilemma. Not a bad dilemma, a good one. To help I need opinions, both strong and weak, from the weight weenie gods.

I'm looking to build a new race bike. I'm almost there, I think, but could do with a reality check on my build list.

Current Ride
Seven Axiom (2004)
Ambrosio F20 Chrono 32 hole tubulars
Campy Chorus 10 speed
Rotor 3D compact chainset

My Profile
2-3 events in the Pyrenees each year
Train in and around London during the week, Surrey Hills at the weekend, 2-3 weeks in the southern Alps each year

I have a great setup and it has served me proud. The Seven still looks like new. This is annoying because every time I clean it, it looks like new again and I have found it difficult to justify a new build. HOWEVER. The ride on the bike is pretty soft at the back because when the frame was originally spec'd for me I asked for a more comfortable sportive feel. So consequently the rear is a little soft. The Campy 10 speed is still great, with amazing 10 speed replacement prices on eBay, but the pull of electronic has me in its sights. Also the box section tubulars are brilliant and in years gone by riding anything else in the mountains was just too dangerous (consistent braking, tubular benefits, resistant to strong gusts common just over summits). However in the last few years deep section carbon wheels have made big leaps in those areas.

So as you can see I have justified, in my mind at least, a new build. I have done countless hours of research. This is what I have come up with.

Preliminary Build List
Wilier Cento 1 SR (Black or White)
Enve Smart 3.4 tubulars (King Hubs)
Campy Super or Record EPS (Undecided as price difference seems excessive)
Rotor 3D compact chainset

I don't buy new bikes often, so I aim for the best I can get at the time and then look after it.

Frame - I started drooling over the Colnago C59. However in the UK it is approx. £3,400. I read up on the Wilier and was amazed when I was told the RRP was £2,399. A £1k saving is not to be sniffed at. So my question is - am I missing something here on the Wilier frame? Is the Colnago that much better? Advice from anyone who has ridden both would be great, although I would have to say they are lucky ***** if they have!

Wheels - I'm staying tubular. I can't go too deep or I'll get blown and laughed off the mountain. I started looking at the lightweight Ventoux's and the Zipp 202 / 303 wheels. At the time I sort of turned my nose up at the Enve's. However the more research I have done, the more people are raving about the 3.4's. Am I on the right path oh gods of Weight Weenies? This is my biggest unknown. I have been a box section boy (that sounds a bit wrong) for years, so I'm hoping to notice a big difference.

Groupset - I'm sticking with Campag. Always have, always will. Ridden the others, don't like. Personal preference though. Undecided between SR or R. Is the price difference for the upgrade kit really that much of a performance difference. Probably not my head says.

So comments, advice, opinions, changes you would recommend. Should I just put new wheels and a groupset on my Seven. Should I finally go carbon? Is the Wilier a steal compared to the Colnago?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:59 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:36 am
Posts: 168
9x12man wrote:
Ok so I have a dilemma. Not a bad dilemma, a good one. To help I need opinions, both strong and weak, from the weight weenie gods.

I'm looking to build a new race bike. I'm almost there, I think, but could do with a reality check on my build list.

Current Ride
Seven Axiom (2004)

b]Preliminary Build List[/b]
Enve Smart 3.4 tubulars (King Hubs)
Campy Super or Record EPS (Undecided as price difference seems excessive)
Rotor 3D compact chainset

I have a great setup and it has served me proud. The Seven still looks like new. This is annoying because every time I clean it, it looks like new again and I have found it difficult to justify a new build. HOWEVER. The ride on the bike is pretty soft at the back because when the frame was originally spec'd for me I asked for a more comfortable sportive feel. So consequently the rear is a little soft.

So comments, advice, opinions, changes you would recommend. Should I just put new wheels and a groupset on my Seven. Should I finally go carbon? Is the Wilier a steal compared to the Colnago?


Ok, as you can see from my chop of your original post, I think you should keep a frame that is timeless, durable (it's survived London and the French high peaks!), and a known pleasure, upgrade to the cool new kit that you clearly desire and rightly admire, and consider how the "softness" of the Seven is constraining your progress toward your competitive goals.

A compliant bike with a toned, fit rider and top-level kit seems like a great option for long-distance sportives and event rides that you describe. Furthermore, Seven is a custom shop with ongoing relationships with its customers. I've seen second and third owners of Sevens send the frames back to the shop for ride preference changes or changes to accommodate new tech (e.g., a Gates drive). They could probably set up your bike for internal EPS routing and insert 1" chainstays (.016 or .032, depending on how stiff you want to go) for FAR less than the price of a new Willier/Colnago frame.

Consider that option. An enduring bike that you love is worth upgrading. The Willier and Colnago are nice bikes, but they are commodity products subject to fashion and obsolescence to a degree that the Seven isn't. A lot of their appeal is driven by their current spec and use in the pro ranks. Once their tech standards are out of date, a newer stay/bracket/steerer/layup emerges, and the pros pick up something different, will they still have the same appeal?

By all means, treat yourself, because life is short and bikes are fun. Just make sure you get the most enjoyment out of your choice and don't think you *must* pursue a new frame.

-SpinnerTim


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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:59 pm 


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 4:42 am
Posts: 886
Location: Calgary
I'm a Colnago and Campy guy but when I bought a Super Record EPS group,I couldn't get a C59, so I bought a Cento Uno - the basic cheap one without any of the new doo dads, super light or new geometry. I have to say that after about 500 km, I like the 101 better than my Colnago EPS and Extreme Power, almost as much as my C40s. I'd charactize the ride as more like a C40 than the newer Colnagos I own, although I haven't ridden a C59 yet. Handling is typical Italian - nice and stable at speed. To give you some idea of my thoughts on recent Colnagos, my next Colnago will be one of the red Master 30s - Record group is on its way. So, I'm a vote for the Wilier. I haven't ridden ti much for years, although I still have a Litespeed cross bike, and prefer carbon, or even steel.

As for EPS group, I like it but really don't think it's worth the extra money. Heavier and it's a pain to charge the battery on the bike. My short lived Di2 group (sold the bike after I crashed heavily on it and didn't feel comfortable after that) was easier to charge and this Campy owner actually didn't mind the Di2 shifting. It's easy to get multiple gears with EPS when only one is wanted, although I'm having less trouble with that as I ride EPS more. I'm not sure electronic is really necessary.

As for wheels, I wouldn't do carbon in the Alps with those long descents. In tubular, I'd probably go with Velocity 24/28 front/rear on nice hubs (UK, so maybe Hope?). Not really lighter than the Cronos but more durable and stiffer even with fewer spokes. Then again, I'm 180 pounds and like the Cronos on the track but wonder about it for the road for me.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:33 am
Posts: 210
Can you try out a Wilier Cento SR before you buy? I owned an Cento 1 and loved the quality of the "magic carpet ride" so much, I upgraded (or maybe downgraded) to the Cento 1 SL. Although the SL is lighter, I was surprised to find that its ride quality delivered significantly more road feedback in a harsher way. From what I've read, the SR is going to be even stiffer than the SL, and was not designed as a comfort bike but more as Wilier's entry into the aero frame market.

Out of curiosity, what led you to these two frames specifically? They wouldn't necessarily be the first frames to come to mind for hill climbing.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Posts: 3130
Location: Athens, Greece
IMHO go for the 101 with Chorus groupset and the best wheels you can afford. 101 is a top performing and comfortable bike at the same time. You should keep your seven of course as a future classic but 101 is already a classic if you ask me.

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My 6530gr Wilier Cento Uno
My 8618gr Colnago Master X-light


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:13 am
Posts: 325
First, I dont think either of the EPS groups are worth the cash. I think a finely tuned, Chorus 11 mechanical drivetrain is superb and the best bang for the buck.
Second, I agree with others that maybe you dont need to dump or upgrade your frame, change your wheels first, then if necessary talk to seven about tweaking it to stiffen it up if you must.

Are we sure that this bike is "too soft" for climbing? Can you borrow a stiffy stiff carbon bike and try one of your climbs? I ask because I have several bikes and the most pleasant climber is actually the LEAST STIFF (and potentially the heaviest!). Some bounce int he frame really helps you up the mountains, it prevents your legs from fatiguing and the sympathetic flex is not a bad thing IMO.

Have you ridden carbon hoops, are you ever caught int he rain? As awesome as my carbon wheels are I can tell you for 100% sure that I am faster on my Nemesis tubular wheels because of the superior braking, better wet braking, shorter panic stops, I often see guys on box tubulars flying past their carbon rimmed bretheren on descents because of how much more sure the braking can be--- just be aware there is a learning curve and the performance is different so build up to those mountains. Personally I would NOT get Enve wheels. I think they are darlings of the wheel world (especially overseas), but the prices you would pay are beyond their quality level. If you want to go carbon the Campy Bora is screaming your name. IF you want to spend more, Lightweights of course.

Sometimest the confidence of a frame with a little mass, or wheels with more mass-- make for more rapid descents than the gram savings on the way up save you.

PM me on the C59.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:41 pm
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Location: The Netherlands
You will love the Wilier at first. However, after a year you will think it is boring and you wish you still had the Seven.

I would say, keep the Seven and give it some nice upgrades. Maybe some new/different tubulars, a nice handmade saddle and possibly a new groupset.

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Check it out: the most amazing vintage Colnago, Merckx and Pinarello collection


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Location: Atlanta, GA, US
+1.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:07 am 
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Stick with the Seven, the Wilier will be out of date soon anyway...just update the components and it'll feel like a new bike!

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"It never gets easier, you just go faster..." - Greg Lemond

"I enjoy climbing...I enjoy seeing people disappear behind me." - Robert Millar


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:16 am 
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Just an opinion, I would buy and fit your proposed ENVE King wheels and a new set of Record 11 mechanical and see how it feels like that.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:40 am 
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Location: Essex / Lincs UK
Get your leg over a C59 and you won't want a Cento. Fairly easy to get a test ride on both in the UK, the Cento is a great all day frame, comfortable and fast but the Colnago is in an all together different league. Smooth, but mostly so damn progressive, no wonder they sell so many, wonderful, wonderful frame imo. I've been on a lot of carbon frames, but the C59 is THE best I have ever ridden. That's why the price wouldn't put me off. Expensive yes but worth every penny, but as I say, you have to ride one to realise it.

Groupset - I wouldn't ride on anything other than Campag either, so you can't go wrong there

Hoops - your world's your oyster ....


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Location: Columbus, Ohio
Seems to me you can't meaningfully compare a monocoque Wilier Cento Uno w/ISP to a tube-tube Colnago C59, whether straight or sloping top tube, because of their fundamental differences in design/construction, etc., let alone the huge price difference. It's even less an apple-apple comparison than comparing frames with similar designs/construction. Each is a great frame but in different ways. If that's the choice, I suggest you ride both and then decide based on how they feel not on a poll of WW favorites.

Whether you keep the Seven and upgrade wheels and components or get the Wilier is so personal a decision, I doubt we can be of much help to you. I rode a custom made Eddy Merckx w/ Reynolds 753 tubing on his 'century' geometry for 18 years and then got a Cento Uno two years ago. I love the Wilier just as I love the Merckx, which I still ride several times a month. But they're apples/oranges. And I haven't gotten tired of or bored with the Wilier nor see it becoming out-dated w/in its price range and design/construction categories any time soon...

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http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=95887


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:56 pm 
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i was thinking similar things, the cento with isp would perhaps less easy to travel with ?? just a practicality, i ride a colnago e.p. and love it to bits however i bought barley for a quarter of the rrp if i was to spend that kind of cash on a new frame i would a pego again.
im sure there all nice ridding bikes


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Location: Essex / Lincs UK
Fourthbook wrote:
Seems to me you can't meaningfully compare a monocoque Wilier Cento Uno w/ISP to a tube-tube Colnago C59, whether straight or sloping top tube, because of their fundamental differences in design/construction, etc., let alone the huge price difference. It's even less an apple-apple comparison than comparing frames with similar designs/construction. Each is a great frame but in different ways. If that's the choice, I suggest you ride both and then decide based on how they feel not on a poll of WW favorites.

Whether you keep the Seven and upgrade wheels and components or get the Wilier is so personal a decision, I doubt we can be of much help to you. I rode a custom made Eddy Merckx w/ Reynolds 753 tubing on his 'century' geometry for 18 years and then got a Cento Uno two years ago. I love the Wilier just as I love the Merckx, which I still ride several times a month. But they're apples/oranges. And I haven't gotten tired of or bored with the Wilier nor see it becoming out-dated w/in its price range and design/construction categories any time soon...

Of course you can compare them. And it's up to the individual as to which one feels best. For a monocoque frame, the Cento Uno is a great frame, which you can't say about all monocoque frames. But they won't feel as good imo, as a tubes and lugs frame such as the C59. Every carbon frame is going to feel different, and they do.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:47 pm 
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The question is if the price difference between a C59 and a Cento Uno is worth it. I agree he has to ride both in order to make a wise choice... or... wait for the new C60 (to be presented next year I guess).

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My 8618gr Colnago Master X-light


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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:47 pm 


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