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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:27 pm 
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How can stating what the RRP is for something be considered a silly statement. The RRP is exactly that. If you want to buy online FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY then the Australian RRP clearly doesn't apply. I didn't think I needed to explicitly state that, I assumed people were intelligent enough to get my meaning.

That'll teach me not to assume a base level of intellect I suppose.

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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:27 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:18 am 
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:roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:27 am 
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*SIGH*
:unbelievable:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:51 am 
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I'll come and give you a cuddle next time I'm in melbs :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:10 am 
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khdroberts wrote:
Another front end I don't like is Baum. There's something very wrong with the geometry of some of the frames that company is putting out. I won't say any more on that topic, but there is something VERY wrong with the items they're putting out on the local market.

You may notice that Baum are not a particularly stiff front end.

Well they use a titanium head tube with a 1 1/8" Enve/3T fork. I presume you have no issues with the fork itself, so what in particular do you disagree with? Do you think Baum's ideas of front-centre and trail dimensions create bad racing frames?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:41 am 
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It's interesting, they seem to be offering their American market a more... finished product.

As for the high speed handling issues, it goes beyond front end geometry (although I feel their ideas on this don't lend themselves to flat-out race speed handling) - their attention to jig alignment in the bikes they're putting out on the Australian market is less than ideal (NOTE: I'm refering to only the bikes that I have actual knowledge of, not to every single bike they make for the Australian market - only the ones that either I have physically seen or people I trust have seen).

There have been issues of mis-align rear-ends in bikes I know of. And that's a worrying thing.

Now, I don't want Baum to litigate, so I'll assume that these issues are only evident in a very limited number of frames and that they are addressed quickly. That is an assumption - I don't know the exact number of affected units nor do I know the specific response of Baum themselves.

I do know that Darren is a dedicated builder and a damned nice bloke and can't imagine that he'd allow that sort of thing to continue.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:28 am 
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Ok thanks for the heads up re: frame alignment.

I've ordered a new Baum, and I spent a lot of time talking bike geometry with him (and reading some articled on steering geometry and stability). The new bike won't be a race bike by any stretch of the imagination which is fine with me.

In fact the geometry for my bike turned out to be identical for Darren's own bike, so we put my pedals on his bike, bumped the seat up and I pounded it up and down the street a few times. I'll be happy with it.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:17 am 
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khdroberts wrote:
I doubt it's much to do with the fork - I ride a Parlee Z1 also, and they're an entire frame made of Enve carbon. I like stiff front ends just fine - but there is a point past which you loose cohesiveness to your steering, you start getting skipping when pushing into corners and your confidence level drops dramatically. Stiff front ends are fine, stiff to the point of obscuring rider input is not fine.

It's more likely the geometry doesn't suit me as much as other bikes.

But the point wasn't me finding the ride of the Cannondale harsh, the point was that the other poster found no difference between a frame built for long ride comfort and a bike built for all out speed with comfort not even a tertiary consideration.

That's what I find odd.

I think you may be over-estimating weight as a factor. Compliant is compliant, stiff is stiff. Perhaps to relative levels, but those relative levels will be comparable.

As for my not stressing frames - I'm 6'6", 82 kilograms and put out a very healthy peak watt figure - I stress the buggery out of frames... and wheels.

Another front end I don't like is Baum. There's something very wrong with the geometry of some of the frames that company is putting out. I won't say any more on that topic, but there is something VERY wrong with the items they're putting out on the local market.

You may notice that Baum are not a particularly stiff front end.

After all is said and done, front end feel is not controlled by the front end alone.


Hey mate, I read your thought and was interested in your theory regarding Baum. I am perplexed by your "not a stiff front end" ... I've always found my ride to be very sure footed and handled exceptionally well. I brought my bike with the intention of having it as my "good bike" like your Z1, but it does everything better than all my previous rides and the Tarmac SL3 I was going to buy as my "race bike" that I now do everything on it... Rain, hail, shine... $21,000 RRP... Best bike I've ridden hands down.

I am in the local market and now have a 3rd on the way. 11 people I am in contact with that ride a Baum all think they are fantastic - 8 of them have 2 or more Baums. I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve regarding your comments, but I don't think it's accurate.

Customers have final say on geometry, wanting them to be built for a certain type of ride quality, which Darren works towards meeting their expectations. As for frames being out of alignment, I've had three shops check over my bike and everyone of them have been very impressed with the precision and level of build quality. My friend who races professionally and is pretty handy at it has a couple of Baums and say his plain white, no graphics, Titanium Baum is the best bike he has ever ridden.

Todd

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:02 pm 
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As I said, my comments are based on my direct experience - just like yours.

Neither of us is going to be right in the others' eyes. You have your experience and that of your friends, and I have mine. The fact that they differ doesn't surprise.

As to what I'm 'trying to achieve' by my comments, the original comment was part of a review of the S-Works Tarmac SL 4 where I compared other bikes I rode and how I felt about them. As that's the case, I was simply offering my thoughts on other bikes - that's what I was trying to achieve. It's not as if I simply made a blanket statement about Baum in isolation. In fact, I think I was rather reasonable in that I pointed out what my opinion was based on and that I felt it was quite possible that this was a limited occurrence.

The fact that your friend is a pro racer impresses me not one iota. It's my experience that pro racers on the whole know less about bike handling than keen amateurs. If you don't believe that, then you may like to talk to any bike trainer - they'll tell you how surprised they were the first time they went out with a pro for a ride and how poor their bike skills were.

I'm very glad that you like your bike and that it causes you to ride more. I'm also very glad that you've had no issues with your bike and that your friends have had no issues.

However, your experiences in now way invalidate mine (as mine don't invalidate yours). I am simply expressing my opinion.

The reality is that I can back up my opinion with empirically measurable fact. I have seen a frame that was delivered to a customer from this company mis-aligned from the jig. And that is poor workmanship by any standard. This is not the first time I've seen similar from this company. These are fact, not simple opinion.

I don't understand why this one single element of my original review of the SL4 has been taken up and blown into what it now is. I don't hate Baum bikes, I just don't trust them. I based this on fact and experience - my experience and measurable fact.

It really doesn't matter what your opinion is, you are not going to change my experience just as I'm not going to change yours - the difference is I'm not posting on your thread, you're posting on mine.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Hi - Great review, very useful.

I was interested to see you have switched from Look to Shimano pedals / cleats. I've always run look keo pedals and like them a lot but the cleats wear out ridiculously quick so I'm interested in why you chose to switch (as I am considering the same).

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:31 am 
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Really interesting review and forum thread.
I'm sure you are aware that being 6'6" your mileage may vary from a lot of people regarding ride quality etc. I'm 6'3" myself.
That white text and grey background on your blog strains my 53 year old eyes btw.
Last summer I wanted a carbon bike after years of titanium and had narrowed my choices down to a Cannondale Synapse, Spesh Roubaix, or Giant Defy.
I also have a Moots VaMoots that is about 10 years old. I expect titanium to last longer and be able to take more knocks than any carbon bike so we differ some there.
The last carbon bike I owned previous to this was a Trek 2500 in 1988 when I was living in Hawaii. I thought maybe 2012 carbon bikes might be a little improved over the 2500...
The Synapse felt sluggish when accelerating and in handling and was ruled out right away. Not what I was looking for in a carbon bike.
The Specialized felt soft which I think is partly due to the wheels but I could also flex the bottom bracket on an SL 3 which really surprised me. In fact all the Specialized bikes I rode felt surprisingly unremarkable.
The Giant on the other hand had what i wanted and was expecting from a carbon frame. Very stiff but comfortable enough with great handling. One of the things I did not realize is that a stiffer bike is a better handling bike because there is no flex so you can tell right where the bike is going to go. I don't notice flex in the rear stays and the handling is pin sharp for me but maybe thats down to our 3" difference in height. ;-) The Giant is point and go as you said about the Kyklos. Descending fast on winding descents is a blast on the Giant.
I expected I would use the Giant for short fast rides and the Moots for everything else but I mostly ride the Giant now on any sort of ride and love it. As you say Giant bikes are a great value which was not a primary concern but nice to save hundreds and still feel like I got a bike better than everything else I tried.
I will be testing the SL 4 Roubaix. i prefer the higher head tube and slightly more relaxed geometry over the Tarmac. The SL 4 Roubaix has a slightly shorter head tube and tightened up geometry from last year. If I like it I'll get one of those to add to my rides.
My brother has an older Tarmac and Roubaix, one with Dura Ace and one with SRAM Red and agrees with your description of the front end as twitchy. Doesn't care for the SRAM red though.
I also had Keo Blades but dumped them for Dura-Ace pedals because they looked like ass after not many miles. About 8 months ago I switched to Speedplay to see if they would alleviate knee pain from two surgeries on my left knee and found they did so I haven't looked back.
Why do you care about weight at 6'6"! The Moots isn't that far off and you need one! :-)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:07 am 
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vladt wrote:
Well, let me see:
1. The BIG "A" - or shall I say i-follow?
2. The pink "R" - Is it their persistent use of alpine terrains in advertising substandard products that affects your apparel purchasing decisions? I do recall you were adamant (about 8 month ago) that they have lost you as a customer?! From what I can see, you are back on the "pink" band wagon with a "vengeance"
3. ...and the "S" - well we've discussed this already...
So here I am, not sure whether to praise you or criticize you, so may be a little of both?
Last but not least, could your selection of the particular bike brand be affected by lack of advertising and "loud" slogans?
Are you just as gullible as the rest of us?


Talk about projection.
Where to start. How about Apple. I've been using Macs since 1984. Why you choose to use that as a subject in a bike discussion is beyond me but I'll bite.
I bought the first Mac in 1984 when I was a Sergeant in the Marines. After 12 years in the Marines I got out in 1990 and did a Computer Science degree at the University of Illinois. I've worked in IT since and now work for a very well known global company designing and solving problems with systems with thousands of users all over the world. I still prefer Mac's and other Apple products as do most of the other highly technical people I know. I've either worked for or at companies like Motorola, Google, Oracle, and others where most of the technical people are in such high demand and skill level that they can use whatever they want. Most of them use Mac's, iPads, and iPhones especially at Google where Macs are everywhere. At Motorola we were issued Android phones for work but many of us carried iPhones as our personal phones. Some of us prefer and can afford quality.
You don't have to use iTunes these days for much or at all. Better brush up on your Mac knowledge. Sounds like you are in desktop support which of course is the lowest level of IT.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:12 am 
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khdroberts wrote:
I'm also not particularly impressed with the whole 'Made In Italy' deal - where you can do everything except put the decals on the frame in Asia, ship it to Italy, slap on a couple of decals and stamp 'Made In Italy' all over it - and it's legal to do so.


Yup. Any "finishing work" no matter how minor, gets a made in Italy sticker slapped on it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:15 am 
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reggiebaseball wrote:
ride feel will vary by rider weight as well, he may not be a sasquatch like you are and is probably not stressing the frame like your heft does.

OP - you clearly do not like uber light, stiffy forks. The Moots you rode had this same front end issue for you, probably due to their uber light Enve-like fork.
The Cannondale probably does the same, with a light and very stiff front end that can seem jittery to you,

Your Sl4 may have a bit softer front end that suits your riding feel better.

I have a bike with an Enve fork that surely transmits more road buzz to my hands than a Reynold Ouzo pro.

It could also be a geometry difference with how much front center you have up there.


My Moots had an Ouzo Pro for years and I put an Enve fork on it recently. I don't notice any difference in road buzz.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:17 am 
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reggiebaseball wrote:
khdroberts wrote:
Moots has a steep HT and short rake fork. Combination can be twitchy at speed, and Moots transmits more road vibration up front, which can be due to material and geometry.


I don't find this at all true on my 59 cm Moots VaMoots. It is an older model but the geometry hasn't changed that much.


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Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:17 am 


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