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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:17 pm 
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You have a Cannondale Super Six Evo and you find it's ride no more harsh than a Roubaix? Really?

The Roubaix is purpose built to be a more comfortable ride than the Tarmac - the corresponding two Cannondale models are the Synapse and the Super Six - Synapse is designed to be more comfortable for longer distances while the Super Six is their all out race machine - Roubaix is made to be Specialized comfortable ride for long distance while the Tarmac is made as their race specific weapon.

Specialized are currently moving their marketing to try to blur the gap in market acceptance of the Roubaix as a comfortable gran-fondo bike, to be more of a 'comfortable race bike'. Reality is, the 2013 model will be a little stiffer and just as comfortable.

Remember, we're not just talking carbon layup and shock absorption technology here (whether it be Specialized with their Zertz inserts or Cannondale with their SAVE chainstays), we're talking angles of frames as well as headtube sizing and so on.

So, for you to say that your Super Six Evo (which is meant as a super light race bike) rides just as comfortably as your Roubaix (which is made to absorb the punishment of the norther one day races - and lots of cobbles) doesn't make sense. Did you ride them back to back?

I found the Super Six Evo to be very light, very fast, have a harsh front end that transmitted every pebble of the road directly to my hands, excellent turn-in and confidence inspiring tracking through corners. It was by no means a bad bike. The Tarmac S Works SL 4 was simply better.

But, like I've said a number of times: this is my opinion, YMMV.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:03 pm 
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ride feel will vary by rider weight as well, he may not be a sasquatch like you are and is probably not stressing the frame like your heft does.

OP - you clearly do not like uber light, stiffy forks. The Moots you rode had this same front end issue for you, probably due to their uber light Enve-like fork.
The Cannondale probably does the same, with a light and very stiff front end that can seem jittery to you,

Your Sl4 may have a bit softer front end that suits your riding feel better.

I have a bike with an Enve fork that surely transmits more road buzz to my hands than a Reynold Ouzo pro.

It could also be a geometry difference with how much front center you have up there.


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Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:03 pm 


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:42 pm 
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I doubt it's much to do with the fork - I ride a Parlee Z1 also, and they're an entire frame made of Enve carbon. I like stiff front ends just fine - but there is a point past which you loose cohesiveness to your steering, you start getting skipping when pushing into corners and your confidence level drops dramatically. Stiff front ends are fine, stiff to the point of obscuring rider input is not fine.

It's more likely the geometry doesn't suit me as much as other bikes.

But the point wasn't me finding the ride of the Cannondale harsh, the point was that the other poster found no difference between a frame built for long ride comfort and a bike built for all out speed with comfort not even a tertiary consideration.

That's what I find odd.

I think you may be over-estimating weight as a factor. Compliant is compliant, stiff is stiff. Perhaps to relative levels, but those relative levels will be comparable.

As for my not stressing frames - I'm 6'6", 82 kilograms and put out a very healthy peak watt figure - I stress the buggery out of frames... and wheels.

Another front end I don't like is Baum. There's something very wrong with the geometry of some of the frames that company is putting out. I won't say any more on that topic, but there is something VERY wrong with the items they're putting out on the local market.

You may notice that Baum are not a particularly stiff front end.

After all is said and done, front end feel is not controlled by the front end alone.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:51 pm 
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I find it odd that the OP catches so much flack for sharing opinions that are well articulated and substantiated by actual experience. You can't argue someone's opinion as wrong - that's what makes it an opinion.



OP, I very much enjoy reading your feedback and completely echo your sentiment about the SL4 and the new RED - having just had the opportunity to spend some time with such a bike :)

I envy you for that bike residing in your stable!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:48 pm 
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Thank you Imaking20, you're very kind. I'm glad that someone gets something from my thoughts.

You're right - everything I write is just my opinion (unless I actually state that it's someone elses opinion or is actual, measurable, proven fact) and people are more than free to hold the exact opposite opinion or anything in between!

I'm glad you've had a chance to ride an SL4 with new SRAM Red - it's a very, very nice groupset with excellent changes, especially to the front shifting.

I do get to the point sometimes when I want to post about something new on one of my bikes but don't bother because it's sometimes not worth having to defend my opinion!

Cheers and thanks for the positive post!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:15 pm 
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khdroberts wrote:
I doubt it's much to do with the fork - I ride a Parlee Z1 also, and they're an entire frame made of Enve carbon. I like stiff front ends just fine - but there is a point past which you loose cohesiveness to your steering, you start getting skipping when pushing into corners and your confidence level drops dramatically. Stiff front ends are fine, stiff to the point of obscuring rider input is not fine.

It's more likely the geometry doesn't suit me as much as other bikes.

But the point wasn't me finding the ride of the Cannondale harsh, the point was that the other poster found no difference between a frame built for long ride comfort and a bike built for all out speed with comfort not even a tertiary consideration.

That's what I find odd.

I think you may be over-estimating weight as a factor. Compliant is compliant, stiff is stiff. Perhaps to relative levels, but those relative levels will be comparable.

As for my not stressing frames - I'm 6'6", 82 kilograms and put out a very healthy peak watt figure - I stress the buggery out of frames... and wheels.

Another front end I don't like is Baum. There's something very wrong with the geometry of some of the frames that company is putting out. I won't say any more on that topic, but there is something VERY wrong with the items they're putting out on the local market.

You may notice that Baum are not a particularly stiff front end.

After all is said and done, front end feel is not controlled by the front end alone.


Maybe I was not clear?
I think you and I are in perfect agreement.
You notice differences in frames because you are a large and powerful rider. The other poster probably doesn;t notice the differences because he is much lighter.

Geometry is critical, we agree on this. Moots has a steep HT and short rake fork. Combination can be twitchy at speed, and Moots transmits more road vibration up front, which can be due to material and geometry.
I even really like that you don't like Baum. And I like even more that you don't want to get into it.

Front end feel is a combination of geometry, tubing and the fork.

I think we agree on many things, and I appreciate your reviews because you are a big sasquatch.

If you want me to get nitpicky I think you bag on Italian frame makers a bit much, considering a Colnago or Pegoretti would fit you just fine. I also think you have carbon and titanium somehow backwards in your brain (because you seem to think carbon is more durable). Finally, you went from Campy I believe to SRAM, is this so? Clearly you had some personal issues at the time that clouded your judgement. But you don;t have to defend those opinions or decisions, we can just agree that I am correct and you sometimes get things wrong. You get enough bonus points for hating on Baum that you are net positive anyway.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:11 am 
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Excellent! I like your style.

One point that you have, well, not wrong, but perhaps confused - I didn't swap from Campy to SRAM... I was considering it, but came to my senses before it was too late.

I have Campy Super Record on my Parlee Z1. I was considering swapping it out for SRAM Red (which, given that it was the old Red I was considering swapping, would have been a gross mistake). I was very unhappy with Super Record - the shifting was simply not working - it would shift fine up and down the rear cassette in the small ring at the front, but as soon as I moved to the big ring at that front, the smallest rear cog was pretty much inaccessible. This, as you would know, is usually a sign of poorly adjusted limit screws on the rear mech. Ah, but it wasn't. The limit screws were fine and dandy.

I considered that perhaps the rear drop out on the Parlee was bent - but they're milled titanium made from a single billet of metal, so the chances of this being bent were pretty slim. The only other option was that the dropout was misaligned in the frame at manufacture. As you can imagine, I broke out in a cold sweat at the thought of this possibility! Not that I thought Parlee wouldn't fix it if it turned out to be this, they would, but rather because I was sure Parlee wouldn't make such obvious errors. But the problem didn't just go away, so the bike went back to the supplier for a fix. To their credit they spent some time making it right - it was a bent rear hanger - how exactly you go about bending a solid Ti hanger in the first place is a bit of a mystery - they straightened it (itself a frightening process considering the hanger is bonded to the chain stay) but the shifting was still not quite what they would have expected from Super Record. They then went and replaced the lever internals on the right lever and the issue was sorted. I'm a happy Campy rider now. I absolutely love Campy and would have it on all my bikes if it weren't for the exorbitant expense - and I am aware of the irony of a guy saying a groupset is expensive when he rides a custom Z1 framesetr :>. Since I could get the new SRAM Red for a very, very, VERY good price the choice was ultimately easy. When this latest Red wears out I'll probably either have already sold that bike or will swap in Record.

Yes, geometry makes all the difference. Yes, power and size play a large part. I still think it odd that someone can't tell the difference between a relaxed geometry and a race geometry, but more power to them - I guess it's a blessing in disguise!

As to the Italian thing, you're most probably right. I do give them a hard time. But I'm still pissed about the 'Italian tax' and the whole 'made in Italy' issue. Perhaps it's in my mind as I have an obvious prejudice, but Colnago frames don't feel as though they fit me... neither do many of the other Italian brands.

Maybe one day I'll overcome my distaste, but at the moment the Specialized is incredibly fun and the Parlee is simply the best thing I've ever ridden and is as much bike as I'll ever need.

Titanium and carbon longevity - no, I don't have it backwards. I just think that carbon has a far longer life than the vast majority of people seem to think. It seems to work just fine for years of fatigue in aircraft manufacture - as does Ti. I like Ti as a material but it's properties are just not for me at this point in my riding life. That's not to say they won't suit me well in the future - I'll probably be singing the praises of Ti in another 10 years! That's the beauty of opinions - they change over time with experience and need!

Cheers.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:42 am 
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I have the same (&@$(&$^)# problem with several campy 11 bikes to a lesser extent. I simply cannot trim out rubbing in my 13 and 12T cogs, like you I have tried to eliminate FD and RD limit
What was replaced or ultimately at fault in the lever mechanism? Was it anything in particular binding up or requiring lube, or was the hood off kilter or anything?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:59 am 
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reggiebaseball wrote:
I have the same (&@$(&$^)# problem with several campy 11 bikes to a lesser extent. I simply cannot trim out rubbing in my 13 and 12T cogs, like you I have tried to eliminate FD and RD limit
What was replaced or ultimately at fault in the lever mechanism? Was it anything in particular binding up or requiring lube, or was the hood off kilter or anything?


The news of how this was fixed won't please the dyed in the wool Campy fans I'm afraid to say.

I am running Campy Super Record 2010 (a deliberate choice at the time - I could have bought 2011 but the colour change put me off - yes, superficial I know!). It turns out that model year had a flaw in the rear shift lever internals. I don't know the technical specifics of the flaw, but was told by my mechanic that it was a known issue. Ultimate solution was to swap out the Super Record internals for a 2011 lever internals (apparently the issue was fixed in the 2011 version). You could also swap out the Super Record internals for Record internals - cheaper and fix the issue just as well (and if you swap the carbon fibre fascia on the lever you won't know the difference visually).

I have to say, it would be nice if these 'known issues' were know prior to purchase!

That was the fix and it worked very well.

I still get the occassional lock-up in shifting (where you go to shift down but the lever won't budge and you have to ghost shift up to 'unlock' the down shift lever. But that's rare these days.

All up it's a lovely groupset to ride - but these issues are pretty poor for a groupset costing north of $4,000 in my opinion.

Hope that info helps.

Cheers.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:24 am 
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Really enjoying this thread khdroberts...say it how it is rather than regurgitating verbal diahhorea... :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:50 pm 
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khdroberts wrote:

All up it's a lovely groupset to ride - but these issues are pretty poor for a groupset costing north of $4,000 in my opinion.

Hope that info helps.

Cheers.


:shock: in this day and age if your paying more than $2000 for SR Ti your not shopping very smart.
Austrailan importers insist we pay 100% more than the rest of the world for walking into a shop when our currency is stronger than the US $$ no less! They an certainly kiss my ass

My mixed boutique gruppo ( campag shifters, mechs, chain and cassette ) didn't set me back that much by at lest $1000.. Tisk Tisk

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:36 pm 
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Didn't say I paid $4,000 for it, said it COSTS upwards of $4,000... which in Australian retail, it does.

If you paid $2,000 for your SR groupset, I promise you - I paid less than you did. FAR less.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 9:54 pm 
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Peis you also ride am Sl3 S-works? How do THE SL4 and 3 compare?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:16 am 
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I can't say I rode my Roubaix and my evo back to back. But I did ride them one day apart as I needed the day to transfer all my the parts to my evo. But my feel is still that they didn't have a big difference. I am by no means an expert as I just ride because I like it and not for racing or anything. I do think however that maybe the wheels I am using had a lot to do with dampening any harshness. I use Spinergy xaero wheels and the PBO spokes contribute a lot to absorbing any road imperfections. I have just changed over to a set of carbon clinchers and will compare.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:35 pm 
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khdroberts wrote:
Didn't say I paid $4,000 for it, said it COSTS upwards of $4,000... which in Australian retail, it does.

If you paid $2,000 for your SR groupset, I promise you - I paid less than you did. FAR less.



a bit of a silly statement.. it's worth what it cost you and not a cent more..

i like to run a mixed gruppo these days and certainly like to out lay as little as possible not too hard with a little research as i'm sure you know :mrgreen:

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Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:35 pm 


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