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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:01 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:09 am
Posts: 346
I'm looking into having a steel frame build, but the builder lives rather far away and testing is practically impossible. I do have a lot of experience with old steel (Aelle, Cromor, 531 professional, FM1) and have ridden OS Alu for 8 years (including races and classics).

Me: 1.71m, 67 kilo (yes, overweight)
Age 42, club racer, style flyer (my sprint is ridiculously bad)

Now I can choose between EOM 16.5 and Spirit (both+full carbon fork) but there are two things I wonder about:

EOM 16.5: Is the ride quality indeed like Alu?
Spirit: Isn't it awfully vulnerable?

I lam fond of my OS Alu Ridley Pegasus, but my current training steel 15 year old Koga with old fashioned FM1 (Ishiwata/Tange?) does have a very smooth feel and certainly does not lack stiffness for a rider like me. I am leaning to the 16.5 due to it's modern looks and strength, but if it mimmicks my Ridley it might be the wrong choice: I do want a bit more compliance.


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Last edited by Franklin on Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:32 pm
Posts: 3549
Location: UK & WEST AFRICA
I have a frame in Columbus Spirit and it's the best steel I have had. I've been through 531 (which just about everone had when I started); plus just about every iteration up to 853. I've also had various other Columbus tubesets up to Ultra Foco.

The ride quality of steel is well known and Spirit is no different. I cannot comment on what it's like in a crash etc because hardly anyone I know rides the stuff. Just about everyone's into carbon.

I like Spirit enough to have just ordered another frameset and would even use steel forks if they weren't so heavy.

Cannot comment on EOM16.5.

Lance Johnson would probably be able to give you a no bull synopsis of the different steel tubesets out there.


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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:56 am 


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:59 am 
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Posts: 346
before people wonder why I worry about the reliabilty is that in all those years I damaged a few frames^^

- The cromor ended up with a small dent in the top tube due to small domestic impact, the vaccuum cleaner tube fell against it. It didn't impact the ride quality ofc, but that one surprised me as it was a tiny, small-force incident.
- My wife wrecked my old 531pro when she couldn't unclip and bumped a parked car at about 5 miles an hour (yes, five). The impact ripped the downtube, that one was (economically) total loss.
- My brother ripped of his Koga's BB from a mainstay, but he had a few falls during his career.

I certainly can live with the risk of falling and I certainly store my bikes a lot higher nowadays, but Spirit is REALLY high end beer can thin. For example two days ago I was riding with friends and a pebble dinged one of our bikes, it sounded like quite an impact. All our bikes were fine, but that made me worry a bit about my plans for a Spirit steel bike.

I intend to use the bike, not pamper it behind closed doors ;)


*Note that:

1. These incidents still haven't turned me off steel, especially because:
2. I know everything can break (and these breaks were non-catastrophal and certainly self inflicted)
3. Repairing steel is more easy tan Carbon (Alu is usually immediately Total loss)
4. More in general: this is not meant as a "Steel vs Carbon vs Alu" thread
4. I'm also not interested in overhyped "steel is real" posts. I'm just looking for real world info ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:21 am 
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Apparently Richard Sachs wrote rather adamant that as the geo is right he can't feel a difference in tube size.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:50 pm
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Spirit is supposedly derived from tubeset that is used as crash protection in doors of sportscars like lambo's. All I can tell you is I once had a mother off all crashes on a pegoretti Marcelo where one leg was through the front triangle and I flipped over a few times at 70kph, no frame damage at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:31 pm
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I think my frame is a 16.5, and it rides superbly. Spirit has a rider weight limit, and my frame has a 150+MpA rating. No contest in my view. Whilst Spirit still has a much better sideways and top knocks superiority to carbon, it's weight limit worries me.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:20 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:20 am
Posts: 42
how about columbus Life tubeset. It's the same steel as spirit, just not that extreme in wall thickness (0.45mm instead of 0.38) and it's cheaper. Plus it offers much more choice in terms of tube sizing for the top, down and seat tubes.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:40 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:31 pm
Posts: 459
Dedaccai zero replica is superior to Life, and probably cheaper and lighter, but I have nothing against Life all the same.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:07 am 
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I did some digging through the posts from Richard and Dario on the framebuilder forum. It didn't help me on this question, but I do know more (always good!): Spirit is made in two flavors: Spirit for tig (light!) and Sprit for tubes. The Tubes version is a lot thinker at the butts.

Some specifics for my case:
- It's between a Zullo Pantarei and an Inqubo *It's silly, but this feels like giving away the mystery*
- Most importantly, I contacted them and the vibe is very good! When I contacted them I immediately got an answer in my own language, which was a very pleasant surprise. So far they are quick to respond (in a charming manner to boot!).
- These are tig welded frames, so they will be using the thin spirit :mrgreen:
- Eom is thicker, but more oversized, so that doesn't help with the dent danger (beer can). If I understand correctly it's a question of thickness/diameter. The alloy itself should make little difference as he affected property by the material is primarily tensile strength. Or so I remember, if this is wrong I gladly yield to a more experienced poster.
- It's custom fit, but the tubing is almost certainly off the peg. I have the strong notion he carries: Spirit, Max, SL and EOM 16.5 Mixing/matching will almost certainly raise the price substantially (I will inform though). Max really should be overkill, SL is a bit to old fashioned (rather small diameters)
- Weight shouldn't be an issue. I'm 68 kg and am hardly a powerhouse. I also don't race hard on bad roads.

I have to admit I am leaning towards Spirit due to the aesthetics. I bet I end up with a 52~ish frame and I am concerned about how that would look with the huge EOM 16.5 tubes. I do like a modern look so the Tonica, even in a modern paint scheme, doesn't fancy me.

To sum it up: I want something pretty with a reasonable practicality. I'm going to use it a lot! Yet for the club races and vacations I'll just use my sturdy alu bike, so I can accept some compromises. The whole rub is: where do I put the cut-off and more importantly, does it even matter? Is spirit really more impact proof than Eom 16.5? Do I need to pamper Spirit?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:27 am 
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My 'sturdy' alu bike get's used for rainy day visit's to the s/market, mah EOM 16.5 does the big jobbies now..it might be an 18.5 though, I'll check. The tubes don't look oversized to me, and you can't argue against a 1400 MpA rating.However OP, your weight allows for all.

Incidentally, it's one of the great mysteries that the carbonian manu's don't publish their MpA frame ratings.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:31 pm
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Nearly, if not all, modern steel frames are oversized, the obvious reason is greater stiffness for power transfer. The weight reduction compared to ye olde 531c's etc from the 80's early 90's comes from steady improvements to the metal matrix's, tube design and baking methods. So my frame has double the tensile strength, 4-5lbs reduced weight and a performance level that is only 2-3% below that of a top endish carbon, when I did a comparison.

Columbus were and are the main spearhead for this tech, Dedacaia are a group of former Columbus tech guy's who started their own company, Reynolds too are in the party with their ultra strong 953 ( 2100MpA) as are True Temper in the States. Reynolds recently came up with 931 which is a bit cheaper and nearly as strong as 953.

953 is probably the cheapest top end steel, UK custom frames come in around £1.4-£1.6K. Columbus are looking at £2K to over £3K if it's Peggers for their top steel, and one of the chaps here said it was uncomfortable.

I like the idea of a cocktail of different tubes for a custom frame, Life being the heavy piece for comfort.

I may be wrong, but i think Ti comes in at 1000 MpA. Steel gives an honest appraisal of the road conditions, without jarring your skeleton.. mine does anyway, and so will Spirit.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:28 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:09 pm
Posts: 1034
Location: Aix en Provence
Spirit is fine at your size and weight. If you are worried about it, Spirit for lugs can also be TIGed.

I have a Sachs that uses PegoRichie (ie Spirit for lugs), I am 1m96 and weight 85kg and this bike is great.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:35 pm
Posts: 1483
Location: Geneva
Franklin wrote:
I did some digging through the posts from Richard and Dario on the framebuilder forum.


link please?

I've always liked the look of the Duell frames, how bout them?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:09 am
Posts: 346
ultyguy wrote:
Franklin wrote:
I did some digging through the posts from Richard and Dario on the framebuilder forum.


link please?

I've always liked the look of the Duell frames, how bout them?


http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/forum.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I honestly forgot in which thread, but I think it was "smoked out" either the Pegoretti Cycli or the Richard Sachs Cyles. Thread. I'll try to pinpoint the right post for ya, but their search is abysmal.

FYI:
Round=Dario
e-Richie=Richard Sachs

About Duell; They are reasonable common here, whereas Zullo is pretty rare. Added is that I REALLY like the classic look of the Zullo's. (And the prices are competitive!)


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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:33 pm 


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:29 pm
Posts: 631
Location: UK
Whatever you decide in terms of Steel you’re going to end up with one hell of a nice bike, Zullo’s are extremely good quality.

I have an Columbus XCR Peg and barely notice any loss in stiffness compared to my carbon Cervelo, but it is massively oversized in terms of steel frames. Personally I’d give Zullo your stats and let them pick the tubing, they’ve got a lot of experience in this framebuilding lark!

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"We live in an age when unnecessary things are our only necessities." Oscar Wilde

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