Did Strava Kill This Rider?

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refthimos
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by refthimos

Craigagogo wrote:Stava's admission of liability, case closed.

I think Strava should sue for negligence their lawyer that was responsible for the first iteration of their "Terms and Conditions".


Hmm not sure I agree this is an admission of liability. They updated their Terms and Conditions so that the next time someone tries a similar lawsuit, they can point to this language in their T's & C's as part of their defense (including a motion for summary judgment), but are you saying that absent a legal disclaimer, they are responsible for users for harming themselves while riding beyond their ability and/or breaking the law?

As an example, I know not to stick my fingers in the garbage disposal when it is running. If I am a garbage disposal company and I get sued by a guy who decides to stick his fingers in the garbage disposal to see what happens, and I decide as a result of that lawsuit that on a go-forward basis, I will place a disclaimer on the garbage disposal switch stating "DO NOT STICK YOUR FINGERS IN THE GARBAGE DISPOSAL WHILE IT IS RUNNING" (i.e. stating the obvious), does that mean I am admitting liability to the first guy who stuck his fingers in the garbage disposal?
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Craigagogo
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by Craigagogo

If the case goes to trail I expect that the plaintiff would jump all over the change in terms and conditions after the fact. Perhaps Strava is worried about a flood of litigation, so suck it up on this case and move on...

Strava settles out of court. Case closed.
Last edited by Craigagogo on Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

refthimos wrote:As an example, I know not to stick my fingers in the garbage disposal when it is running. If I am a garbage disposal company and I get sued by a guy who decides to stick his fingers in the garbage disposal to see what happens, and I decide as a result of that lawsuit that on a go-forward basis, I will place a disclaimer on the garbage disposal switch stating "DO NOT STICK YOUR FINGERS IN THE GARBAGE DISPOSAL WHILE IT IS RUNNING" (i.e. stating the obvious), does that mean I am admitting liability to the first guy who stuck his fingers in the garbage disposal?


In the United States?
Yes.

McDonalds infamously lost a lawsuit someone brought up for millions of USD when hot coffee spilled in their lap. The hot coffee they just ordered spilled in their lap on their own doing. They claimed pain & suffering. Now every cup of hot coffee states the obvious: "caution! contents may be hot!"
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refthimos
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by refthimos

prendrefeu wrote:McDonalds infamously lost a lawsuit someone brought up for millions of USD when hot coffee spilled in their lap. The hot coffee they just ordered spilled in their lap on their own doing. They claimed pain & suffering. Now every cup of hot coffee states the obvious: "caution! contents may be hot!"


The thing about the McDonald's case is the jury found that McDonald's was making their coffee crazy hot (i.e. undrinkable) and thus they found that McDonald's was making the coffee a heck of a lot more dangerous than it needed to be. I'm not saying I agree with that verdict, but the idea is that they could have served the product in a way that was not unnecessarily dangerous. I believe they also found the woman partially negligent for having the coffee in her lap, so they basically found McDonald's partially liable and the woman herself partially liable for her injury.

I find Strava to be different. There is no way to make the service safer unless you shut it down - the entire concept of chasing record times is at risk. The cyclists using the site are engaging in an inherently dangerous activity whether or not they use Strava - carrying a cup of coffee is not an inherently dangerous activity - at least it shouldn't be.
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dereksmalls
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by dereksmalls

prendrefeu wrote:Unfortunately there will always be people in the world who become overly obsessed with things that ultimately have very little value in life, and sadly their obsession can lead to the risk upon their own health.


Agreed, but being a WW doesn't count in the above does it? :mrgreen:

milkbaby
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by milkbaby

refthimos wrote:
prendrefeu wrote:McDonalds infamously lost a lawsuit someone brought up for millions of USD when hot coffee spilled in their lap. The hot coffee they just ordered spilled in their lap on their own doing. They claimed pain & suffering. Now every cup of hot coffee states the obvious: "caution! contents may be hot!"


The thing about the McDonald's case is the jury found that McDonald's was making their coffee crazy hot (i.e. undrinkable) and thus they found that McDonald's was making the coffee a heck of a lot more dangerous than it needed to be. I'm not saying I agree with that verdict, but the idea is that they could have served the product in a way that was not unnecessarily dangerous. I believe they also found the woman partially negligent for having the coffee in her lap, so they basically found McDonald's partially liable and the woman herself partially liable for her injury.


What is also not remembered in this case (and many others) is that the monetary damages were greatly reduced by appeals court afterwards.

In the USA there is no penalty for the person bringing (sometimes frivolous) lawsuits to court. IIRC, in some countries you are penalized when you are a losing plaintiff.

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Roobay
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by Roobay

well you get this off Strava when someone else beat your record
Uh oh! Paul Darby just stole your KOM!

Hey John,

You just lost your KOM on St Marys Ringway Climb to Paul Darby by 19 seconds.

Better get out there and show him who’s boss!

-Your friends at Strava


and now they have sent out a new terms and conditions email

its dodgy ground
but Strava didnt kill that cyclist
his inability to ride faster was his own undoing
I feel for his family
i like people... i just can't stand assholes

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MattSoutherden
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by MattSoutherden

I agree with you Roobay. While I completely agree that people people need to be spenda little more time considering what the repercussions of the actions may be, there are 2 things that lead me to believe that Strava could lose this case. I think they will end up settling out of court and making some changes to their site.

Firstly, the emails that egg people on. Sending out emails that say "hey, get out there and race this section of road faster" are on pretty shakey ground. While they were probably intended to compliment the uphill KOM segments, the fact that users can create a downhill segments gives these emails a somewhat more dangerous meaning.

Secondly, those changes to the terms of service don't look good. It suggests they thing that their old terms do not provide them with a disclaimer of liability.
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by rustychain

The family wants Starva to put out cones, control traffic. I actually like that idea. Restrict cars everywhere there is a Strava route. Oh one can dream :idea:
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Ozrider
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by Ozrider

Absolutely not
How about the family go and sue the following for contributing to his death:
bike manufacturer
Tyre manufacturer
Helmet manufacturer
His riding buddies


How about them accepting that he was obsessive in his behavior, and HIS AND ONLY HIS ACTIONS LEAD TO HIS DEATH.
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CBJ
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by CBJ

Ozrider wrote:Absolutely not
How about the family go and sue the following for contributing to his death:
bike manufacturer
Tyre manufacturer
Helmet manufacturer
His riding buddies


How about them accepting that he was obsessive in his behavior, and HIS AND ONLY HIS ACTIONS LEAD TO HIS DEATH.


I was thinking the same where would it end. You could sue his parents for not raising him to understand his own limitations and the list goes on.

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

CBJ wrote:
Ozrider wrote:Absolutely not
How about the family go and sue the following for contributing to his death:
bike manufacturer
Tyre manufacturer
Helmet manufacturer
His riding buddies


How about them accepting that he was obsessive in his behavior, and HIS AND ONLY HIS ACTIONS LEAD TO HIS DEATH.


I was thinking the same where would it end. You could sue his parents for not raising him to understand his own limitations and the list goes on.



Or they could say hey he f@cked up and not sue anyone... :!:

Worst thing is here in Australia people are starting to take the American stance of suing others for your own stupidity.. :noidea:

WinSuits
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:15 pm

by WinSuits

refthimos wrote:http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/06/news/family-sues-strava-over-descending-death_224889

It's tragic when someone dies riding their bike, but at some point as cyclists, we have to take responsibility for our riding behavior and not try to blame others for "making me do it."

Very sad for his family, but suing Strava is not the answer.


Carelessness killed him (along with contributory negligence).

WinSuits
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by WinSuits

refthimos wrote:
Craigagogo wrote:Stava's admission of liability, case closed.

I think Strava should sue for negligence their lawyer that was responsible for the first iteration of their "Terms and Conditions".


Hmm not sure I agree this is an admission of liability. They updated their Terms and Conditions so that the next time someone tries a similar lawsuit, they can point to this language in their T's & C's as part of their defense (including a motion for summary judgment), but are you saying that absent a legal disclaimer, they are responsible for users for harming themselves while riding beyond their ability and/or breaking the law?

As an example, I know not to stick my fingers in the garbage disposal when it is running. If I am a garbage disposal company and I get sued by a guy who decides to stick his fingers in the garbage disposal to see what happens, and I decide as a result of that lawsuit that on a go-forward basis, I will place a disclaimer on the garbage disposal switch stating "DO NOT STICK YOUR FINGERS IN THE GARBAGE DISPOSAL WHILE IT IS RUNNING" (i.e. stating the obvious), does that mean I am admitting liability to the first guy who stuck his fingers in the garbage disposal?


Which of you two is the lawyer?

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Kneedragon
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:20 pm

by Kneedragon

Ozrider wrote:Absolutely not
How about the family go and sue the following for contributing to his death:
bike manufacturer
Tyre manufacturer
Helmet manufacturer
His riding buddies


How about them accepting that he was obsessive in his behavior, and HIS AND ONLY HIS ACTIONS LEAD TO HIS DEATH.


+1

I find it unfortunate that a company which has helped innovate the way we train, will have to suffer because of this.

On a lighter side of things, "Blame Strava" could be a new Internet meme.
Dude1 - "I wasn't able to reclaim my KOM, so I had to immediately buy those Lightweight Obermayers"
Dude2 - "Hell yeah. That's the only way you'll get it back"
...
Wife - "Why did you spend $6K on wheels?!"
Dude1 - "Blame Strava"
:lol:

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