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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:41 pm 
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J-Nice wrote:
He wasn't counting on the investigation going all the way back to 1998 and the possibility of losing ALL SEVEN Tours.
That would put Miguel Indurain back to having the record for most consecutive (5) TdF wins, and tied for the most total TdF wins. I liked Miguel Indurain. I never liked Lance Armstrong. Do you think Miguel Indurain might have partaken of EPO, among other things? His rise to dominance seems to coincide with what Greg Lemond (and maybe Laurent Fignon?) has hinted at as being the beginning of the EPO era in grand tour cycling.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:57 pm 
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It is really pointless in speculating really, and frankly unfair to go after only Lance in this case. That era of cycling was chock full of dopers, so really it was dopers beating dopers or a pretty fair matchup if you ask me. I don't see how they can strip Lance of the Tour title and pass it on to the second place doper.......doesn't follow logic for me. :noidea:

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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:57 pm 


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:07 pm 
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2 of the many lessons I've learned from my old man:

1. Where there's smoke there's fire - and there's been alot of smoke on this
2. If you throw enough shit at the wall somethings bound to stick - The French, UCI, Landis, US Att. now USADA

In the end of the day do I care if he doped, no, they all did. Does that exonerate him or make it right if he did, no but we need a little more than he said she said and this looks like he might have done it we need solid proof!

What does get my goose is there talking about team wide doping consperacies on 4 teams with some personal staying on board through different teams it's around 80-100 different individuals. Yet there charging 5 and only one of which is a rider mind you a couple have already been caught but not while serving on a team with LA from what I recall corret me if I'm wrong. Now bring in the 10 key witnesses that still leaves a reasonable amount of people with probably 30+ different riders, where are the rest of the riders, team mates, wives, girlfriends, and the hussy you had on tour that wants to make a quick buck from a tabloid that where involved and around it if this if it was so big? Where is their testimony? Where are their letters? This may or may not be a witch hunt but it seems like the full course of justice wasn't followed if they can only get 5!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:23 pm 
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Unless this causes sudden weight loss for someone's bike, please lock the stupid thread.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:26 pm 
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KB wrote:

If they find evidence and take the 7 Tours from him, who are they going to award them to when delving into the also-rans, a lot of them have been tarnished in their own doping scandals.




Eventually all Tour titles will be rolled down to Jens Voigt.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:32 pm 
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Or to anyone who has not won a tour yet that is until they actually win one.

Love this chart that was posted on the Pro Cycling thread.

Past tour winners during the Armstrong years. Not 100% accurate but close.
Image

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:01 pm 
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My view, Lance didn’t fail any test as such he is not a “cheat”. I do however believe he was doping, but at levels that kept him under the thresholds put in place by UCI etc, but that does not make him a “cheat”.

I liken this to Formula 1, you build a car within the regulations, you do everything you can to tweak the design and to maximise what’s permitted within the laws, if you’re faster it’s because you’ve got better design. If you strap on a turbo then you break the rules and are a “cheat”.

Unfortunately Lance’s era of cycling there was no notion of acting within the “spirit of the law” (and not v sophisiticated testing), Lance has however proven on a number of occasions to act within the “letter of the law”

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Last edited by bikewithnoname on Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:10 pm 
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That chart is awesome; also don't take away Lances titles. The sport really doesn't need that press! Lance is a champion no matter what "training" regiment he was on; the chart shows that even though he was almost certainly doping he was still the better man. Sponsors won't poke pro cycling with a 10 foot poll when stuff like this keeps happening. I don't mean that they should just sweep it under the rug, but an investigation into tour victories and preparations from 5-10 years ago? It just seems like a waste of time, money and major face. Lets catch the guys who are still doping and let those who were never officially caught stew in their own mental shame and pain :noidea:

Also could we get a governing body that can make a decision; I hate having 30 identically bureaucratic organizations deciding weather or not some guy did anything wrong or not and then fighting over conflicting results and opinions. Its sickening!

Oh and I would like a new BMC Aero bike thrown in with all that; just ship it to my apartment cycling gods :P

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:13 pm 
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You can still cheat and not fail a test or lose. All a test does is try to catch the cheats.

I once had someone take an online test for me. I passed. Did I not cheat because no one caught me? Nope, I still cheated there was just a very easy way to mask the fact that I did it. The difference comes later in admitting guilt.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:37 pm 
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KWalker wrote:
You can still cheat and not fail a test or lose. All a test does is try to catch the cheats.



And that is why there are thresholds for the tests. If substance A has a threshold of 1,000 parts per whatever and the test comes back as 900 parts per whatever, the athlete has not doped. Lance has still yet to have a positive test come back (please spare me the conspiracy theories of how there was a test sample and how x,y and z happened to stop it from being brought to light).


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:49 pm 
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HammerTime2 wrote:
J-Nice wrote:
He wasn't counting on the investigation going all the way back to 1998 and the possibility of losing ALL SEVEN Tours.
That would put Miguel Indurain back to having the record for most consecutive (5) TdF wins, and tied for the most total TdF wins. I liked Miguel Indurain. I never liked Lance Armstrong. Do you think Miguel Indurain might have partaken of EPO, among other things? His rise to dominance seems to coincide with what Greg Lemond (and maybe Laurent Fignon?) has hinted at as being the beginning of the EPO era in grand tour cycling.

Indurain probably was. Let's face it, you can have all the natural talent in the world but you'll never be able to beat someone doped to the gills, especially in an era where most of the riders who were taking EPO were probably going way over the 50% threshold that was put in place a couple of years after Indurain retired.

But Indurain didn't pop out of nowhere as a grand Tour contender with ridiculous forays in the mountains like Claudio Chiappucci did. Indurain at least had a pedigree at the Tour D'Lavenir, rode as a domestique for Pedro Delgado and slowly climbed up the TdF general classification until he won his first Tour.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:57 pm 
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^ Slowly climbed up the classification until he got the good drugs.


J, doping and using of PEDs is well known within cycling. Back to its early years. Up to its middle years. And even to its current years. To think otherwise is naive and asinine. The problem is that cycling itself keeps claiming that it is clean and that doping is not rampant amongst its riders. Who cares.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:15 pm 
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It's interesting to see how many posters here (and on other forums) know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lance doped - as if they injected him themselves.
A teammate accusing LA of doping after being caught themself doesn't prove anything to me - just as most criminals lose credibility after being caught red-handed and try to bring down accomplices.

I believe these agencies who keep pursuing LA are no different than posters who "know" who is quilty - the difference is authority.


Bottom line: people will believe what they want.


The problem with athletes/fans/participants of any sport who constantly cry foul about another is that they bring the sport down as a whole.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:29 pm 
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the highlight of all of this news is that I learned a new slang term for EPO: Edgar Allen Poe
now I will have an easier time buying it on the street (at least near the liberal arts colleges)!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:33 pm 
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stax wrote:
Mr.Gib wrote:
A few points:

It has to do with seeing justice done and not leaving our sport with the impression that you can get away with cheating. "Convicting" Armstrong is essential if cycling is ever to be perceived as clean.

As to the lack of fairness - Armstrong being singled out, sometimes resources (not just money, but manpower and time) dictate that you just go after the most important and most symbolic target.


So does this give the impression that you can get away with cheating if you are not too succesful and not too outspoken?


No, on the contrary it shows that you cannot be successful if you dope because if you rise to the top (the intention of doping) you will attract the attention of the authorities. It is simply not possible to take on all the "little fish". This is the way the justice system works and it provides the most powerful deterrent. Only corrupt societies punish the little guy while avoiding taking on the powerful.

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Last edited by Mr.Gib on Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:33 pm 


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