USADA Banned Armstrong new Doping Allegations

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bomber
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by bomber

I thought the references to recent seasons was more around the bio passport values indicating possible doping not actually having a positive test result?
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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

A few points:

As to this being a waste of money I am not so sure. Certainly much more money has been spent on far more questionable pursuits. If the evidence is good it must be prosecuted. It has nothing to do with finding out if Armstrong doped - that he did is simply common knowledge. It has to do with seeing justice done and not leaving our sport with the impression that you can get away with cheating. "Convicting" Armstrong is essential if cycling is ever to be perceived as clean.

As to the lack of fairness - Armstrong being singled out, sometimes resources (not just money, but manpower and time) dictate that you just go after the most important and most symbolic target.

As for those with concerns about Hamilton and Landis, how will you feel when big George tells the exact same story?
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by HammerTime2

stella-azzurra wrote:This is just like an episode of the old Batman. I used to watch it (not when it first aired btw) every day with my brother. How the hell is Batman going to get out this one? :noidea: No way hes done. :twisted:

Tune in next time, same bat time, same bat channel.
Yeah, except Lance Armstrong isn't Batman, he's EPOMan.

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by 53x12

drmutley wrote:why? How's that work? And Johan can continue to DS for RS-N-K at the up coming tour?



Because WTC (World Triathaon Corporation) is the owner of all Ironman Triathlon/Ironman 70.3/5150 races. He could do another version like Rev3 or another race that is outside of WTC. But WTC has suspended Lance from doing any of their WTC races; the big ones being Ironman France that he was planning on doing as well as Kona later this year.
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53x12
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by 53x12

J-Nice wrote:
Landis and Hamilton fit the bill, but if they have testimony from eight other riders (count 'em, EIGHT) mentioned in the USADA document, including that bastion of credibility and all-around nice guy George Hincapie and Armstrong's very own ex-wife, then the testimony of both disgraced ex-riders will hold equal weight.



J it is hearsay that Hincapie said those things. Hincapie has vehemently denied those statements. If he admitted to LA and himself both providing each other with EPO and testosterone, how could he even be riding still? His supposed testimony was given back in May 2011. He has since raced in 2011 and 2012. Doesn't make sense if he admitted to using EPO and providing it to another rider. If he did that, he would have been suspended. Sorry, it is still speculation.
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boysa
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by boysa

Does anyone expect the USADA to stand up and say, "Here is a positive test result. " If they can, then that is great and they've done a good job. Unfortunately, I believe what they are going to present will be a lot of conjecture, hearsay and possibilities. THAT is why I believe it to be a waste of money. At the end of the day, it will still be a lot of he said/she said. If he is guilty, then so be it. But please make sure the evidence is tangible and rock solid... In a court of law.

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53x12
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by 53x12

Unfortunately USADA is not a court of law. It is a non-profit organization. The Department of Justice already said there was no case against LA.
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by shotgun

http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/Ban_What_Ban__2850.html

It was reported that Lance Armstrong, "is banned from competing in triathlon, a sport that he focused on after retiring from cycling competition," according to USA Today.

"The immediate impact is that Armstrong will be banned from competing in triathlons this summer," declared the Washington Times.

The other Washington paper, the Post, wrote, "As a result of the charges, Armstrong has been immediately barred from competition in triathlons, a sport he took up after his retirement from cycling in 2011."

Anderson Cooper's news telecast led with the news of new doping allegations against Armstrong. A caption below the screen read, "Due to allegations, champion cyclist banned from triathlons."

Even Velonews led with the headline, "USADA suspends Armstrong over doping investigation."
None of this is, in fact, true. Armstrong is not banned from triathlons. Not yet. Rather, USADA's 15-page letter, sent to Armstrong's attorneys, laid out its thesis that Armstrong was part of a team-wide conspiracy to dope, and concluded with, "at this time, we are forwarding this matter to a panel of USADA anti-doping review board for its consideration and recommendation as set forth in the USADA protocol."

And, "... if this case proceeds beyond the anti-doping review board USADA will recommend a sanction..."

There is therefore no ban yet. Armstrong is free to compete in triathlon, or cycling, for that matter, assuming the race organizer will allow him into its race. And there's the rub.

"Armstrong is therefore suspended from competing in WTC-owned and licensed races pending further review," wrote the World Triathlon Corporation (WTC) in a statement. This, because, "Our rules, as stated in the WTC Professional Athlete Agreement and Waiver, dictate an athlete is ineligible to compete during an open investigation." WTC owns and produces the Ironman brand of triathlons.
Perhaps there is some wiggle room in the phrase, "pending further review."

When would this ban threatened by USADA take place? "If a hearing is held in the regular course, you should anticipate a hearing date before November, 2012." It would then seem logical that a period of time would transpire while the independent Review Board adjudicates the matter and renders its decision. Even then, if the Review Board finds against Armstrong, USADA would then "recommend a sanction."

If a sanction is then returned, there is then the possible appeal to CAS (Court of Arbitration for Sport), which would likely stretch into 2013.

During that time, there seems no reason why Armstrong could not continue to race in any event in which he's welcome, including triathlons.
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KB
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by KB

I think Tapeworm has got it right on this one. My view is that they would need incontrovertible evidence to prosecute him. People's statements mean jack, it's hearsay.

If they find evidence and take the 7 Tours from him, who are they going to award them to when delving into the also-rans, a lot of them have been tarnished in their own doping scandals.

Not to say that it's right, but it's apparent that nearly everyone he was competing against was on the same juice. And I also think that the charges were brought exactly to cause bad publicity to the sport when the Tour is about to start. Politics is a very dirty business.

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

No, peoples statements can have weight, a lot in circumstances. But the questions, and they will be hard questions, will be asked of those providing the statement. Any flaw of character, ulertior motive, history, will be exposed, and sometimes this is enough to have the evidence rendered useless or inadmissable.

If the USADA get it wrong I can see the Armstrong legal department suing them out of existence.
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stax
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by stax

[quote="Mr.Gib"]A few points:

It has to do with seeing justice done and not leaving our sport with the impression that you can get away with cheating. "Convicting" Armstrong is essential if cycling is ever to be perceived as clean.

As to the lack of fairness - Armstrong being singled out, sometimes resources (not just money, but manpower and time) dictate that you just go after the most important and most symbolic target.

So does this give the impression that you can get away with cheating if you are not too succesful and not too outspoken?

And surely singling out LA increases the vendetta arguement and also makes the whole thing void of 'justice' for cycling :noidea:

dereksmalls
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by dereksmalls

Here is a link to the letter sent to LA if anyone wants to read it http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/armstrongcharging0613.pdf

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

A synopsis so far:-
http://3wiresports.com/
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dereksmalls
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by dereksmalls

Now what I believe , is, during his reign Armstrong was the best of fairly level playing field. Everyone at that top level, by top level I mean top 5 grand tour level, was fairly equal all things considered.

But from this statement made by USADA taken from that article Tapeworm linked "evidenced by the data from blood collections obtained by the UCI,” cycling’s international federation, taken from Armstrong, in 2009 and 2010, numbers “fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions.” - I'm confused

Does that mean in 2009 and in 2010 they had these results, knew they were "consistent with blood manipulation" but did nothing about it? Or they have only just come to that conclusion now?

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J-Nice
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by J-Nice

Tapeworm wrote:No, peoples statements can have weight, a lot in circumstances. But the questions, and they will be hard questions, will be asked of those providing the statement. Any flaw of character, ulertior motive, history, will be exposed, and sometimes this is enough to have the evidence rendered useless or inadmissable.

If the USADA get it wrong I can see the Armstrong legal department suing them out of existence.

Wishful thinking. First of all, the Federal case wasn't dismissed through lack of evidence, it was a political move made by one man who did not discuss his decision with the agents who collected the evidence.

As for the character, ulterior motive, etc. of the accusers, much has been made of Hamilton and Landis, but there are ten riders who gave testimony. Not all of them could possibly be lying, and all stating the same lie to the letter.

In criminal trials involving organized crime, who are the ones giving evidence against the bosses? The very people who went out to rob, steal and kill in their name. These types of witnesses have, according to you, zero credibility. But these are exactly the type of people whose statements put people in prison.

Who had less credibility than Sammy "The Bull" Gravano? But his testimony put his boss John Gotti away for life, while Gravano went free after serving 5 or so years and admitting to 19 murders.

Jerry Sandusky will likely go to jail for life on the strength of the same testimony proffered by those who testified against Armstrong-no actual "proof" of actual crimes because the victims were never examined by doctors directly after the alleged molestations took place. So there you have it.

Back to Armstrong-there are others besides riders who have made statements, unknown in number, but the reality is this type of evidence cannot be dismissed so cavalierly.

And the samples that have been mentioned as showing signs of blood manipulation and/or EPO abuse are from his "Comback 2.0, Hope Rides Again" tour.

The other thing is Armstrong was given an opportunity to meet with USADA, and guess what? He declined. The mind boggles as to why he decided not to go, but credibility, or lack thereof, certainly comes to mind. He decided not to tackle the allegations head-on, but decided on a cowardly public statement where he blames everyone under the sun for conspiring against him. Poor Lance...

USADA would not have taken the drastic step of banning a rider from riding without proof of a recent positive dope test, but they did it to Lance. And they mentioned going after all seven of his Tours. Why? Because despite the legal loophole of a statute of limitations, the breadth and scope of the conspiracy demands that he gets stripped of all the Tours he won as a doped rider.

All in all, it's a great day to be a hater. Armstrong has already sent his internet troops out to pass along the same tired message of "waste of taxpayer money" and "most tested athlete on Earth". This public display of hubris is in stark contrast to the statements he made a few months ago in that soft-gay porn men's magazine, the one that highlights the lifestyles of yuppies enjoying the great outdoors.

He said he was done defending himself against doping allegations, and resigned himself to the possibility of being stripped of one or two Tours. He wasn't counting on the investigation going all the way back to 1998 and the possibility of losing ALL SEVEN Tours.
Last edited by J-Nice on Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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