HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:39 am 
Offline
in the industry

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:32 pm
Posts: 3132
I don't subscribe to any of this though.

My bike is a Canyon SLX with Super Record. Given that I don't race is a pure luxury. I would be fine on something costing half as much (indeed in Germany when I am there I ride a Canyon AL with Force). I don't notice a HUGE difference (other than the ergonomics of Ergo levers is far better than that of the other options). The point is, what a bike says to others about you is in the eye of the beholder, and therefore you shouldn't make your choices based on that (or judge anyone).

At a local club ride, someone said to me as a joke, about Canyon being cheap internet bikes. The usual thing about lacking the soul of the Italians, blah blah blah. Given that I got mine from the shop in Koblenz, know the people who designed and made it personally, for me it has a lot more personality that many of the other brands out there. What I am saying is that it represents far more of a personal choice, and emotional choice than they could know.

Just as a dentist may well be Cat 1. Who knows?

Or, heaven forbid, someone bought something because they like it, and can afford it, regardless of the job they do, their ability or their understanding of the sport.

_________________
http://worksrider.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:39 am 


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:42 am 
Offline
in the industry

Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:32 pm
Posts: 3132
RTW wrote:
I don't subscribe to any of this though.

My bike is a Canyon SLX with Super Record. Given that I don't race is a pure luxury. I would be fine on something costing half as much (indeed in Germany when I am there I ride a Canyon AL with Force). I don't notice a HUGE difference (other than the ergonomics of Ergo levers is far better than that of the other options). The point is, what a bike says to others about you is in the eye of the beholder, and therefore you shouldn't make your choices based on that (or judge anyone).

At a local club ride, someone said to me as a joke, about Canyon being cheap internet bikes. The usual thing about lacking the soul of the Italians, blah blah blah. Given that I got mine from the shop in Koblenz, know the people who designed and made it personally, for me it has a lot more personality that many of the other brands out there. What I am saying is that it represents far more of a personal choice, and emotional choice than they could know.

Just as a dentist may well be Cat 1. Who knows?

Or, heaven forbid, someone bought something because they like it, and can afford it, regardless of the job they do, their ability or their understanding of the sport.


Gum wrote it better than I could. I am happy to see anyone on any bike. Means that the law of averages dictates sooner or later they will buy my product! :D

_________________
http://worksrider.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:18 am
Posts: 363
Location: Australia
gumgardner wrote:
Cyclists are a weird bunch. It's a reverse snobbish behavior. This is the only community I know of where you are looked down upon for being a doctor, dentist or lawyer. Is it a jealousy fueled hatred. Since when is it "not cool" to make the most out of your life? I personally spent 7 years after college training to become a periodontist. Some people train longer. While I would have liked to have ridden my bike instead of studying, I chose to spend 85% of those days either in the labs, clinics or studying. The reward for this is a nice salary, so I can buy nice things and live a nice lifestyle. Anyone of you could have chosen a similar path. I guess it's just easier and "cooler" to look down upon it and criticize. It's a weird and sad thought process many of you have. I hope you are all teaching your children that it's okay and dare I say "cool" to push yourself in other areas besides cycling. Because as we all know, cycling doesn't pay the bills.


Actually, the reward for working long hours to specialise is not the high salary. The high salary is largely a function of the profession you are in. Typically, this is because by the time people get to seeing a specialist like you:
a) they are desperate and therefore willing to pay anything to get the problem fixed
b) they are unable to shop around to get the same service cheaper elsewhere because they are already in the chair; and
c) because the prices of your essential services are largely [price] unregulated which which means that when there is little competition because there are so few of you, and you are dealing with people who are desperate, it's becomes quite easy for prices to rise across the board without any negative impact on volume of custom.

Contrast this with a biological sciences research scientist as an example. Like you, they are, on average, among the brightest of the bright. They work around the clock anywhere from 4-7 years to achieve their PhD. When finished, they're paid a piss poor wage (US ~$30,000K... here in Aus, generally around $60,000K with little little prospect to improve). They also have poor long-term career prospects, have highly stressful jobs and live year to year on research grants with little security.

*I should probably admit whilst I'm at it, GG, that I'm in the process of giving up a career in the latter to undertake a career in something along the lines of what you do for the very same reasons that you state. :beerchug:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 4:43 pm
Posts: 5081
Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed
Illuminate wrote:
Contrast this with a biological sciences research scientist as an example. Like you, they are, on average, among the brightest of the bright. They work around the clock anywhere from 4-7 years to achieve their PhD.
Some of them take so long to finish (or not finish) their Ph.D. because they spend too much time riding and racing, and not enough time researching.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:35 am
Posts: 5020
Location: New York
The bottom line is that you do not need to be a lawyer, doctor, or dentist to own expensive toys.

_________________
I never took drugs to improve my performance at any time. I will be willing to stick my finger into a polygraph test if anyone with big media pull wants to take issue. If you buy a signed poster now it will not be tarnished later. --Graeme Obree


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:47 pm
Posts: 3553
Location: Pittsburgh
Illuminate wrote:
gumgardner wrote:
Cyclists are a weird bunch. It's a reverse snobbish behavior. This is the only community I know of where you are looked down upon for being a doctor, dentist or lawyer. Is it a jealousy fueled hatred. Since when is it "not cool" to make the most out of your life? I personally spent 7 years after college training to become a periodontist. Some people train longer. While I would have liked to have ridden my bike instead of studying, I chose to spend 85% of those days either in the labs, clinics or studying. The reward for this is a nice salary, so I can buy nice things and live a nice lifestyle. Anyone of you could have chosen a similar path. I guess it's just easier and "cooler" to look down upon it and criticize. It's a weird and sad thought process many of you have. I hope you are all teaching your children that it's okay and dare I say "cool" to push yourself in other areas besides cycling. Because as we all know, cycling doesn't pay the bills.


Actually, the reward for working long hours to specialise is not the high salary. The high salary is largely a function of the profession you are in. Typically, this is because by the time people get to seeing a specialist like you:
a) they are desperate and therefore willing to pay anything to get the problem fixed
b) they are unable to shop around to get the same service cheaper elsewhere because they are already in the chair; and
c) because the prices of your essential services are largely [price] unregulated which which means that when there is little competition because there are so few of you, and you are dealing with people who are desperate, it's becomes quite easy for prices to rise across the board without any negative impact on volume of custom.

Contrast this with a biological sciences research scientist as an example. Like you, they are, on average, among the brightest of the bright. They work around the clock anywhere from 4-7 years to achieve their PhD. When finished, they're paid a piss poor wage (US ~$30,000K... here in Aus, generally around $60,000K with little little prospect to improve). They also have poor long-term career prospects, have highly stressful jobs and live year to year on research grants with little security.

*I should probably admit whilst I'm at it, GG, that I'm in the process of giving up a career in the latter to undertake a career in something along the lines of what you do for the very same reasons that you state. :beerchug:


There is something to be said about researching the various fields and making a smart decision about what line of work you choose to go into. I'm not saying that it's bad to be a chemist, biologist or whatever, but if you are going into such career thinking you are going to strike it rich, you are ill informed. Some people go into it because it is what they love to do. I really love what I do, but if it was a known poor paying profession, I'd never go into it. I'd find a different career that I loved that paid the bills for a lifestyle that I want.

_________________
RUEGAMER 5.21kg, 11.48lbs

CRUMPTON 4.40kg, 9.70lbs


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 1:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:18 am
Posts: 363
Location: Australia
GG, yep, completely agree. Wish I had the foresight/wisdom/courage to come to that conclusion earlier than what I did. Now comes the fun game of catchup.

:) I


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:30 am
Posts: 68
Location: NYC
"(...)lawyer, doctor, or dentist(...)"

It's even more funny to see that this 80's trinity of ex money jobs still gets the quotes, as if Sicilon Valley never happened. :noidea:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 4:43 pm
Posts: 5081
Location: Wherever there's a mountain beckoning to be climbed
It's certainly not true in all cases, but many of the Silicon Valley well-to-dos and bigwigs, as well as the not-as-well-to-dos, can and do really hammer, and are anything but poseurs. When you get to a climb or sprint, they'll just waste you, unless you're good yourself - with them, it's not about hanging out at coffee shops or cafes.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 1:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:31 pm
Posts: 459
Top banana's Gum, all must respect 7 years on the hateful treadmill of full time degree/masters degree studying. Three years was more than enough for me, though i've always had a soft spot for the 'ologies as a result.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 5:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:31 pm
Posts: 346
elviento wrote:
Here is my read:

Doctors, lawyers, dentists ---> not cool.

Anybody who races at Cat 2 or below level ---> cool.

Anybody who races at Cat 2 or below level on a cheap CAAD10 level (or below) bike ---> super cool.

Doctors, lawyers, dentists who races at Cat 2 or below level ---> !@#$@%_)@#?!! :noidea:



Parlee ---> quadruple cool, despite doctors/lawyers/dentists

Serotta ---> not cool (any more, thanks to the dentists... )

Colnago ---> could be cool, depends who you ask

Passoni ---> double not cool

Pinarello ---> quadruple not cool. F*** Pinarello

What fun would life be without a(n un)healthy drop of stereotyping? :smartass:


This is great! So true!

KAC


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:57 pm
Posts: 7333
Location: San Francisco, CA
The reason doctors are disliked is because the profession is unfairly protected from competition. The medical system us set up to suppress decision making based on cost and, in any case, in many cases the patient isn't competent to price shop due to it being an emergency. The medical system is like a parasite on the economy, consuming an ever increasing fraction of resources, with practitioners so obviously paid disproportionately to other skilled professionals. Fold in a healthy dose of arrogance and conflict of interest and you have the fuel for a lot if resentment.

People are jealous of professional athletes more than doctors but the professional athletes are obviously there due to merit and so there is more admiration than disdain.

Pro athletes tend to quickly suffer for lazy, poor performance but from doctors this is not only not punished but is expected.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

_________________
http://djconnel.blogspot.com/
Fuji SL/1
\


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 11:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:02 am
Posts: 2294
Location: On the bike
djconnel wrote:
The reason doctors are disliked is because the profession is unfairly protected from competition. The medical system us set up to suppress decision making based on cost and, in any case, in many cases the patient isn't competent to price shop due to it being an emergency. The medical system is like a parasite on the economy, consuming an ever increasing fraction of resources, with practitioners so obviously paid disproportionately to other skilled professionals. Fold in a healthy dose of arrogance and conflict of interest and you have the fuel for a lot if resentment.

People are jealous of professional athletes more than doctors but the professional athletes are obviously there due to merit and so there is more admiration than disdain.

Pro athletes tend to quickly suffer for lazy, poor performance but from doctors this is not only not punished but is expected.


No offense DJ, but that is a lousy opinion. As someone in the medical profession, I feel obligated to respond to your claims.

What other profession do you know of that takes a minimum of 23 years of education and training and most likely +25 years for someone who sub-specializes? What other profession do you know of where one doesn't get paid for 2-3 months AFTER providing a service? What other profession do you know of where a customer can receive a service or product and not pay? What other profession do you know of where one can lose their home, business and assets because a jury thought the customer went through a lot of "pain and suffering?" What other profession are the lives of individuals in the hands of the practitioner?


Why do you state "The reason doctors are disliked" when in reality the rankings I have seen for the most prestigious professions typically has physicians at the top along with teachers nurses and firefighters. Please show me where all this supposed "dislike" that people have for physicians is. Maybe this is completely subjective on your part and only you hold this view?

And no, the medical system is not designed to suppress the decision making based on cost. I am not even sure what you mean in this case. The reason there is no set price is because each patient is different. The cost of a lung transplant isn't the same for each person because one patient might develop MRSA pneumonia and require spending a week in an ICU and the other leaves the hospital without complications. One person might show up to their doctor for a physical and get a clean bill of health and the next might find out that they have cancer. Both patients went to the doctor feeling well, both have different outcomes. Medicine is not a field where you can predict the future and base costs on this. Same asinine thought as bringing a car to a dealership with a "noise" and expecting them to tell you right on the spot the problem and cost to repair without them looking at the car and determine what is wrong. One "noise" has a completely different cost than another "noise." In summary, every "noise" does not equate to the same problem or the same cost.

Quote:
The medical system is like a parasite on the economy, consuming an ever increasing fraction of resources, with practitioners so obviously paid disproportionately to other skilled professionals.


Not even sure I know what this means? Sure lets build more bombs and fighter planes instead to attack the "bad guys" hiding in the mountains. It is a good sign that our society spends money on research, technology, drug development, medical equipment design, new hospitals, educating future physicians and other health care workers. Not sure why you view this as a negative. With those added years than grandma or dad had after their bad heart attack or stroke, guess where those treatment regimens and protocols came from? Guess where the diabetic who would have died in their 20's 100 years ago but can now live into their 80s came from? Guess you expect all the advancements in breast cancer research and Alzheimer's to come at no cost. Maybe you need to read more into the economics behind advancement.

Who ever said a physician is "obviously paid disproportionately to other skilled professionals"? You as an engineer? Most engineers have what, a bachelors maybe a masters? Sure there are some that have a PhD. However every physician in this country has a doctorate degree plus their post graduate clinical training that is at least another 3-7 years. So at what point does their ability to take care of sick sick people make them over paid when they take all the responsibility when someone dies? At the end of the day when you leave the office and finish your math calculations, you don't have to deal with the call in the middle of the night regarding a gunshot trauma or the old lady who fell down some stairs and has a brain bleed. Physicians are paid more secondary to their education/training and the responsibility and demand placed on their lives.

Quote:
Fold in a healthy dose of arrogance and conflict of interest and you have the fuel for a lot if resentment.


Arrogance in what regard? Maybe the physicians you have met have been that way, and I feel bad that you have had that interaction. I sure don't nor do my colleagues. A good physician knows what they know, but they also know what they don't know. Must be the environment in Cali? I sure don't see that around my parts. Don't let one bad apple spoil the bunch.

I also don't know what you mean by "conflict of interest"? I don't know of any physician who would purposefully make their patient sicker, keep them sick, or put them on a treatment or therapy that would not make them better. That would be negligence and malpractice. Do engineers have conflict of interest?

I am getting the sense from your comments that you have some bitterness towards the medical profession. I am not sure why.


Quote:
People are jealous of professional athletes more than doctors but the professional athletes are obviously there due to merit and so there is more admiration than disdain.


I didn't go into medicine so that people would be jealous of me. I went into the field because I want to help people who are sick, I want to make a difference, I want to be the person that can help them, I want to be at the forefront of a field that is always changing and learning new things, and ultimately I want to help out society.

Quote:
Pro athletes tend to quickly suffer for lazy, poor performance but from doctors this is not only not punished but is expected.


Do engineers suffer from lazy and poor performance? What physician are you trying to describe as being lazy and a poor performer? Let's see, we are required to pass 3 sets of national boards to get a medical license, have to graduate from medical school, have to enter a residency and successfully complete that, need to pass your specialty boards, if you want to sub-specialize then you need to pass your sub-specialty boards and you need to renew your medical license every two years there after and take medical board recertification every 6-10 years. Yeah, that sure makes a bunch of lazy people with poor performance. How much oversight is there in the engineering field in relation to that? I am not saying every physician is perfect, but you really need to look at the whole picture and not an isolated instance or individual.

DJ, I am very surprised by this comment as I have always viewed you as one who is very logical. Seems like you might have some underlying issues to deal with.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:26 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:46 am
Posts: 231
Location: Toronto
I am baffled why anyone would be jealous of being lawyers- salaries in law are very bimodal and plenty of office jobs will surpass an average lawyer's salary. The bad rap probably comes from the media in the US, where it seemed lawyers were demonized as greedy leaders of frivolous torts and taking a bigger chunk of settlements than the plaintiff, but the kind that does high-stakes litigation and pull in millions per case are a fraction of a percentage of the profession. Big firm pay isn't that mind-blowing given the hours and opportunity cost involved of going to law school, never mind the fact that only a fraction of law students end up in big firms, government hiring is down, and smaller practices/public interest organizations can't afford to pay new lawyers too much. Most lawyers that have been practicing for many years make a middle-class salary, or are just underwater given the fierce competition between independent and small practices (open up a Yellow Pages book for any city and you'll find hundreds of these firms.)

When you're working 80-90 hour weeks, you do want to make the most of the little free time you have- and if you can afford it, then why not? What's the point of making money if you're not free to spend it on whatever you like? I like spending my money on bike equipment- but I don't own a car for instance unlike most of my colleagues.

_________________
Flickr
2012 Cannondale CAAD10


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:26 am 


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:02 am
Posts: 2294
Location: On the bike
^ I agree. Lawyers get an unfair rap. Lawyers and physicians spend + years in education compared to the average educated citizen. Not to mention the long hours, stress and demands placed upon their position.

People should feel free to spend their income how they please. On a bike. Vacation. Cars. Electronics. Investments...etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 56 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cymans, Exabot [Bot], greasyballs and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. Question: How do you call a ride with two cyclists?

[ Go to page: 1, 2 ]

in Cycle Chat

ave

21

1348

Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:19 pm

dominikk View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists? (courtesy: The New York Times)

[ Go to page: 1, 2 ]

in Cycle Chat

kac

21

1938

Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:48 pm

kac View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Runners versus cyclists: body makeup differences?

in Cycle Chat

davidalone

11

860

Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:35 am

ultyguy View the latest post


It is currently Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:39 pm

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB