HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:50 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Poormans Canyon
My HED C2 set built by a local shop has been in constant need of truing. I am talking every 100 miles or so I need to take them in to true them; five times so far since January this year. The other day while up on the bike, the front wheel was rubbing the brake pads hard, I had to release the tension on the pads. While seated, the wheel never rub. Lateral stiffness appears to be one of the issues; I have adjusted the hubs so there has not been any excessive lateral play.

The wheels are built as follows: King R45 hubs, 28f/32r laced 2x front and 3x rear, Sapim Force triple butted spokes throughout, brass nipples.

I am 6'-1", weigh 240 lbs and I am relatively "light" on wheels. My other wheels include Ksyrium SLs, Roval SLs (OEM with bike), Enve 45 clinchers on R45 24f/28r radial/2x cx-ray; never had a problem with any of them. To be fair, I have not used the Rovals much because I was skeptical of the low spoke count (16/20) and replaced them with the Ksyrium.

Do you think I am too heavy for the built or the built quality may not be up to par? The shop has been very accommodating retruing them every time but I am rapidly loosing confidence on these things and they were supposed to be my long distance bombproof set.


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:00 am 


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:41 am
Posts: 201
Location: Bucks County PA USA
It's a reasonable build and should hold up much better for you. Especially the front wheel should be trouble free. They need to be completely retensioned. I'd reconsider another shop. Post what area you're in and the forum may be able to recommend a nearby master wheelbuilder.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:00 pm
Posts: 260
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Poor build. Most likely contenders: uneven tension and no tension relieving. Re-build those wheels and you're fine!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:50 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Poormans Canyon
I do appreciate the responses. What the tension value should be? There is some play with each spoke at the cross but they don't feel either tight or noodley. We will need to verify the tension of each spoke with a tensiometer as suggested before.
Who you would consider to be a master builder in the Washington DC metropolitan area and should the existing spokes be reused when rebuilding the wheels?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:19 pm
Posts: 651
you are a pretty big rider, but I would think those wheels should be able to handle it.

for reference, I'm 165, and I can make factory Easton EA90 SL's (24F-28R) rub the brakes when I'm out of the saddle. Add 75 pounds of muscle, and I have no doubt you could get them to rub from the saddle.

that build, on those hubs, should be ok the only thing I would recommend different besides a rebuild is maby adding on some tougher spokes on the drive side rear wheel for stiffness:
http://www.sapim.be/spokes/butted/strong

thats what ergott is going to do for me on my build here in the next few months...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:50 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Poormans Canyon
mjduct wrote:
for reference, I'm 165, and I can make factory Easton EA90 SL's (24F-28R) rub the brakes when I'm out of the saddle. Add 75 pounds of muscle, and I have no doubt you could get them to rub from the saddle.
..


The wheel does not rub when I am on the saddle, only when I get up and really get on it like on a steep climb. If I don't tilt the bike, it does not rub. Neither the Ksyrium nor the Enve rub no matter how much I tilt the bike.

mjduct wrote:
that build, on those hubs, should be ok the only thing I would recommend different besides a rebuild is maby adding on some tougher spokes on the drive side rear wheel for stiffness:
http://www.sapim.be/spokes/butted/strong

thats what ergott is going to do for me on my build here in the next few months...


It's the front wheel that occasionally rubs when laterally challenged, not the rear.

I have heard of Eric's work and have read a lot of his posts. He seems to know his stuff. If I understand correctly from his past posts, he recommends going to heavier spokes like the Race or wheelsmith 14/15 on the DS when he is using aero spokes like the cx-rays on the other 3 sides and the rider weight, style and roads need it.

The Force spokes used on my set are a step above the Strong, very stout, very robust spokes. Called Sapim and asked them the very same question, their answer was Force are more than enough for the application. Before I decided to go with the C2s, I called HED about their clyde Ardennes build as well, they use 24/28 and comps. Although they said the Ardennes would be fine for my weight and style I opted for the sturdier built with the C2.

At the end I decided to go with a local shop to avoid the hassle of sending wheels back and forth over the mail in case anything happened...........well, you know the rest.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:50 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Poormans Canyon
Another question for the experts on the board...

The Sapim website lists the Force spoke capacity at 1350 N-mm2. A conversion calculator shows this to be 137.66 kg/mm2 so we could round it up to 137 kgf.

This should be the tension limit, correct? Should one expect that 75% of this value or approx. 123 Kgf should be the benchmark average spoke tension? :? The tech info on the HED site for the Ardennes CL shows up to 133 kgf so 123 kgf would be a safe tension for the rim capacity? Cant find any tech info on the C2, I am assuming the Ardennes CL are very close to as far as rim material goes.

I hope I am not asking stupid questions here....


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:21 pm 
Offline
Shop Owner

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:12 am
Posts: 2194
Location: Alto, NM
Which wheel is going out of true? The wheel goes out of true because one or more spokes goes slack and unwinds (too low tension or uneven build). Most likely the build was not adequately stress relieved, leading to deferential changes occurring when you ride. Very few shop mechanics know how to do this right.

The Force spokes are listed as 2.0x1.8x2.0 mm... same as Race... but with an elliptical center. They should be plenty stiff and strong though.

Regarding the brake rub, is it possible that your pads are closer than they need to be? Can you feel any play when you grab the front tire and rock it back and forth?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:22 pm 
Offline
Shop Owner

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:12 am
Posts: 2194
Location: Alto, NM
Dcgriz wrote:
A conversion calculator shows this to be 137.66 kg/mm2 so we could round it up to 137 kgf.


You have to multiply by the cross sectional area of the spoke in the middle, which gives you 350kg. This is the ultimate strength... not what you could tension them to. 120kg should be plenty.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:50 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Poormans Canyon
rruff wrote:
Which wheel is going out of true? The wheel goes out of true because one or more spokes goes slack and unwinds (too low tension or uneven build). Most likely the build was not adequately stress relieved, leading to deferential changes occurring when you ride. Very few shop mechanics know how to do this right.

The Force spokes are listed as 2.0x1.8x2.0 mm... same as Race... but with an elliptical center. They should be plenty stiff and strong though.

Regarding the brake rub, is it possible that your pads are closer than they need to be? Can you feel any play when you grab the front tire and rock it back and forth?


Both wheels have repeatedly gone out of true, the rear has been doing it more frequently than the front ( 5 times have trued the rear and 2 times the front in about 500-600 miles). However, it is the front that is rubbing when I stand up on the bike at an all-out effort which tends to tilt the bike more.

There is approximatelly a 2mm gap between rim and pad. When I grab the tire and rock it back and forth I feel a displacement but not a play. I felt a play after the first 100 miles or so and then I readjusted the hubs to take care of it; that was expected as the bearings settled in. I checked the hubs every time before I took the wheel back to be trued and they always checked fine since that first adjustment..

Would you suggest retensioning and stress relieving using the existing spokes?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:50 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Poormans Canyon
rruff wrote:
You have to multiply by the cross sectional area of the spoke in the middle, which gives you 350kg. This is the ultimate strength... not what you could tension them to. 120kg should be plenty.


Thanks


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:19 pm 
Offline
Shop Owner

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:12 am
Posts: 2194
Location: Alto, NM
Dcgriz wrote:
Would you suggest retensioning and stress relieving using the existing spokes?


Yes, that would be the first step. There is a possibility that the poor build will lead to earlier spoke failure down the road, but I'd keep the original spokes for now.

The Hed rims are very round and straight, so this should not happen if the build was good.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:50 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Poormans Canyon
@ rruff

I appreciatte your time and effort replying to my questions. I'll talk to the shop first as they have been very accomodating so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that practice makes perfect, if I don't get the warm and fuzzy, I'll send you an email to see if you are interested in rebuilding them using new spokes.

Thanks again.


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:54 pm 


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: dalex, Google Adsense [Bot] and 47 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. 9070 di2 problems

in Road

dane476

7

612

Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:55 pm

Briscoelab View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. BIANCHI EV 4 - reviews, problems.. etc?

in Road

ohergo

10

1438

Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:53 pm

lperdido View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. alchemy orc hub problems please guild me

in Road

liketoride

7

975

Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:23 pm

liketoride View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Colnago C59 Derailleur Hanger Problems

in Road

alexaqui

3

413

Tue May 27, 2014 5:40 pm

Svetty View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Anyone else have battery problems with Wahoo RFLKT?

in Road

VTBike

6

478

Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:24 pm

glepore View the latest post


It is currently Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:55 am

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB