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 Post subject: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:01 am
Posts: 24
Location: Canada
Hi there. So, after a few off-seasons of trying various training programs (mainly from Friel and the likes), I've abandonded LSD. I find that usually come November, December I'm bored out of my skull and have barely scratched the surface of any power training (that is, my power, not, with power). I have no doubt these methods work, but when stuck indoors, it's hellahard.

This year I've jumped in feet first and started interval training as my only training (well, maybe an LSD on Sunday if I'm bored, but it's not sceduled). Usually Monday's are VO2 (total work 4 mins), Wednesday's are Sub-Threshold (total work 40 mins) and Fridays are threshold (total work 25 mins). The results are unbelievable (so is the hurt) (I have no power or HR data to quantify my gains, but hey, I doubt Merckx or Hinault did either). It's been five weeks, and the gear choice I was using for VO2 I'm now using for Sub-Threshold. Which leads to my problem. I've run out of gears/resistance!

My question is, since I can't get a great VO2 workout (30 s on 30 s off X 8 sets), should I a: increase time spent, so 45 s on or 1 m on, or b: just abandon this workout for some speed drills until the weather here in the great white north gets a bit nicer.

thanks!


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 Post subject: Thoughts on VO2
Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:25 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:26 am 
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Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:11 pm
Posts: 219
I would give 3-5 minute VO2 intervals a try. They are not as intense as the 30 second Tabata style you have been doing, so you shouldn't have as much of an issue running out of gears.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:46 am 
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There is research (note: not studies) looking at 3mim duration efforts being better for developing VO2max. These intervals are gruelling to say the least and appropriate recovery needs to be factored when applying them within a training block. I use them and have anecdotally noted they translate to sustained efforts better than the 30sec or shorter high intensity intervals. That being said the shorter intensity efforts translate very well to things like crits, mtb where the repeated high intensity efforts are employed.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:25 am 
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Formerly known as wassertreter

Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:08 am
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Location: Pedal Square
Tapeworm could point out that research or any other material about 3min intervals? I've also been recommended 2-3min intervals by a sports doctor that I'm consulting with every once in a while, but would be interested in any new info. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:18 am
Posts: 363
Location: Australia
Worth a read. I was a member of this trial - brutal! :)

http://lunekildecoaching.com/Web15/imag ... intopt.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:26 pm 
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My observation:
30s = too short to really feel the suffering.

>3 minutes and you subconsciously pace yourself so you aren't really going "all out"

2-3 minutes intervals: a nightmare of living hell. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Location: Canada
Thanks! I'm thinkin' that I'll give the increase a try. I don't really want to exceed two mins though because I'm worried it might end up being too similar to my 5 min intervals later in the week (5:1). Any ideas what work to rest ratio's I should use for best results? I might start out with 1:1 unless anyone can think of something better.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:31 pm 
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Location: Bay Area
30s is not actually too short if the power is correct. If I can figure out how to post a non-hosted picture I have a nice power and HR graphic of a 10m long 30/30 interval. The HR actually rises right around its vo2 max zone in the first 2 minutes and stays elevated there for almost the full 10m. IIRC even though the power is variable oxygen uptake still increases and correlates oxidation and anaerobic glycolysis. If done right the AP for the 10m should be close to 100%-105% of FTP even though the power is not constant. With a 330 FTP my on's tend to be on my L5/L6 border and the off at around my lower tempo zone. If you take that as a whole its not too bad, but they're also very specific intervals that I like to use for simulating rolling road races or circuit races that aren't super technical, but have some hills and stuff. I generally pair these and the typical static time vo2 intervals and always get my biggest power gains when I start L5 training. I find the type of fatigue and the carryover from each to be far different, but both are applicable to what I do.

A lot of people do these wrong and just make the ons a half-assed sprint and the offs a half-assed spin. Reeling the power in to the appropriate zone and using the appropriate technique and cadence is integral to them actually transferring over in any sort of meaningful way.

I think lots of people read the Coggan book and the Wattage forum and go straight to 6x5's, 4x8's and more advanced versions of vo2 intervals that are often impossible for them to complete even if their FTP is reasonably accurate. I'd start low and work up the duration over time.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Location: Bay Area
DrunkinRoxtar wrote:
Thanks! I'm thinkin' that I'll give the increase a try. I don't really want to exceed two mins though because I'm worried it might end up being too similar to my 5 min intervals later in the week (5:1). Any ideas what work to rest ratio's I should use for best results? I might start out with 1:1 unless anyone can think of something better.

1:1 is fine. I find better results from adhering to 1:1 and trying to keep my power steady across the intervals than trying to stave of fatigue by hitting the ceiling in the first 2 or 3

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:35 am 
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Location: so. cal.
hello i have a runner's background and i do not understand how you can work your vo2max with 30 sec. efforts. i was thaught that to improve your vo2max efforts should be 5+minutes :noidea:


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:19 pm
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Location: South Carolina
Alot of what you guys are talking about here is laid out in the Carmichaels Time Crunched Cyclist. If you think about the races you do, I pretty much guarantee that most of us on average over the season, race no longer than 3 hours.

Also these intervals still work the aerobic system, since you cannot get to the VO2 without going thru aerobic. If you are inside on the trainer then I feel these workouts are key to balancing a life with work, family and racing.

HUMP

That being said, I usually try to get out and ride, but most of my during week rides are spent working tempo with burst for 1.5 hours. Weekends are for racing or long group rides.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Location: Canada
+1 on using a range of different Interval schedules. Not only will it keep your workouts from becoming 'routine', but it will sharpen your range of response, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:03 pm 
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Location: Bay Area
roca rule wrote:
hello i have a runner's background and i do not understand how you can work your vo2max with 30 sec. efforts. i was thaught that to improve your vo2max efforts should be 5+minutes :noidea:


Running is quite different in terms of the muscular demands and amount of work each energy system must undergo to move the human body. Not many runners can do 30min. threshold intervals either, but it doesn't mean that its too much for a cyclist to handle.

30s alone is definitely not enough, but the idea of the 30/30 is doing 10 total minutes. As I said above, the average of these intervals ends up right at L4/L5's border and if you take a look at a HR graph, you enter your vo2 zone prematurely- after about 2 minutes. Your heart rate stays elevated for the entire set so although its only 30s at a time you're primarily working your vo2 system for 10 whole minutes. It doesn't come down much during the off periods if you keep the power up in the correct zone. It is much easier for newer athletes to start with such a progression and work up, but its also a great workout for people that race races with a lot of rolling hills, tight corners, etc. who have to surge a ton.

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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:36 am 
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Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:54 am
Posts: 52
Location: Brisbane, AU
Illuminate wrote:
Worth a read. I was a member of this trial - brutal! :)


Interesting. I just finished a study at UQ this week relating to different exercise methods and their effects on blood metabolites (at least that's what I think it was about).

The VO2 intervals were unpleasant to say the least.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:12 pm
Posts: 11
Rick wrote:
My observation:
30s = too short to really feel the suffering.

>3 minutes and you subconsciously pace yourself so you aren't really going "all out"

2-3 minutes intervals: a nightmare of living hell. :shock:



Did you ever do a real Tabata.. don´t think so. It´s killing!
But I think 2/3 mins intervals are better, beceause you can sustain a more stable power. Tabata is all about giving it all, rest and giving it all.


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughts on VO2
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:02 am 


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