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 Post subject: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:11 am 
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I want to use the last couple of months before the season starts to just get rid og the last fat I have. I'm 178 cm tall, and weigh around 76 kg's at the moment. Last year around June I was at about 74 kg's, and that's the first target. I'm not fat at all, but still just want to drop the weight a bit. I just can't seem to drop weight at the moment. My training plan looks something like this:
Monday: Weighttraining - squats, single leg press, calf raises(all 3 sets with 6 reps), planks and some cardio to get the body working. About 1 hour of exercise
Tuesday: Turbo trainer session. Usually 2x20 or 25 at 85% of FTP - 65-75 minutes
Wednesday: Turbo trainer session. Usually 2x20 or 25 at 85% of FTP - 65-75 minutes
Thursday: Turbo trainer session. Usually 2x20 or 25 at 85% of FTP - 65-75 minutes
Friday: Weighttraining - squats, single leg press, calf raises(all 3 sets with 4 reps), planks and some cardio to get the body working. About 60 minutes
Saturday: Rest day
Sunday: 2-3 hour ride on the road, or intervals on turbo trainer for 75 minutes

So I'm definately getting some exercise. Then let's have a look at the diet. I count kcal's, and actually find it quite amusing so no problem here. I'm trying to lower my carb intake on days where I'm either resting or doing weights. A day like that could look something like this:
Breakfast: Scrambled eggs with tomatoes, some rye bread with cheese and ham, and a banana
Lunch: 2 pieces of rye bread with chicken filet and mackarel + some fruit
Dinner: A piece of chicken filet, some potatoes and a mixed salad
Snacks during the day: about 30 almonds, 250 grams of chocolate milk(after the workout), fruit

This was very similar to the diet I had yesterday. It ended up being 48% carbs, 26% fat and 26% protein.

On days when I'm on the bike, the diet is similar, although I might take an extra piece of rye bread between lunch and dinner. Dinner though, will have more carbs than on weighttraining days to get the tank filled again. Days like these the spread is 53% carbs, 24% fat and 23% protein.

Each day I'm about 500 kcals under what I should be at, to give me a weightloss at around 4-500 grams a week.

Now, the big questions is, what can I do differently to lose that weight? A friend of mine linked me this article http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/the_final_nail_in_the_cardio_coffin. What it basically said was to start focusing on short burst instead of steady state workouts.

The same friend also told me to look at tabata styles workouts(20 second sprints, 10 seconds off x 8).

I'm staying pretty clear from sodas, although I'm only human and like to enjoy a coke every now and then. The same goes for candy and chips.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:48 am 
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1) why do you really want to lose the weight? Just a goal?
2) my experience is that when one obtains close to "pro" power one also seems to obtain "pro" weight, but not the other way around.
3) if you really, really want to drop weight then keep doing what you're doing but eat less.
4) intervals in the sub 4 min range have been shown to help use the subcutaneous fat but is not a "magic bullet" for fat loss.
5) maybe you have just hit your "happy place" in terms of weight?

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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:48 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Tapeworm wrote:
1) why do you really want to lose the weight? Just a goal?
2) my experience is that when one obtains close to "pro" power one also seems to obtain "pro" weight, but not the other way around.
3) if you really, really want to drop weight then keep doing what you're doing but eat less.
4) intervals in the sub 4 min range have been shown to help use the subcutaneous fat but is not a "magic bullet" for fat loss.
5) maybe you have just hit your "happy place" in terms of weight?


Good reply, and I'll see if I can answer them

1) I have always been on the chubbby side, and the last years of cycling have seen me shed a ton of fat and muscle gain. I want to lose fat as I still have the classic tire around the lower belly that I'd like to get rid of. I am pretty lean at the moment, with a fat percentage of around 10-12%, but as with any other cyclist we all chase that last couple of pounds
2) Fantastic saying that I've really never thought about. I guess it would be easier to raise my performance rather than shedding the last kg's? And by doing so, my weight might drop.
3) I'm already eating less than I used to - maybe I'm just impatient at getting results.
4) I agree. I've read numorous articles, one stating one thing, another a completely different approach. My initial thought was that doing a lot of steady state would lead the body to addapt to that strain. By mixing up shorter/more powerfull intervals with the classic 2x20 maybe that would confuse the body a bit? Any thoughts on that? For instance starting the week by doing 5 minute intervals at 105% of FTP with 1 minute rest, then on another day go back to 2x20 SST? Or maybe having one day with tabata style intervals?
5) I've thought about that as well, but know I can get down to at least 75 kg(as I was in december).

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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Location: Lenart, Slovenia EUROPE
Maybe this helps...


What Every Triathlete Should Know About The Power-To-Weight Ratio


There can always be something a triathlete doesn’t like about their body. But since your basic body type is primarily determined through genetics, it’s futile to lament what you can’t change.

Maybe you are tall, thin, and lanky, or perhaps you are short, broad, and husky. The trick is to use what you’ve been given to your advantage.

Whatever body type you may have, improving your power-to-weight ratio (PWR) will aid you in reaching your full potential as a triathlete.

It is also known as strength-to-weight ratio. It’s especially critical as it relates to running and cycling; not quite as much with the swim, due to the buoyancy of the water.

For most triathletes, one of the most simple and cost-effective ways to get faster is to explore ways to increase your power-to-weight ratio.

The Formula

The power-to-weight ratio is the power a person generates, divided by their body weight.

It’s not brain surgery.

You improve your PWR by becoming lighter and maintaining or increasing muscular strength. Being "lean and mean" is all about your PWR.

Here’s why this is important: Success in the sport of triathlon relates to one’s ability to generate the greatest force and aerobic power, in the most economical manner, to overcome the drag or resistance of water, wind and terrain.



Power-To-Weight Ratio Examples

When comparing 2 triathletes who generate the same amounts of strength (like reaching the top of a bike climb together), the person with lower body weight will have a higher power-to-weight ratio.

If the heavier rider, carrying more body weight up the hill, exerts 100% effort in the climb, then his leaner counterpart should complete the climb with less effort. The leaner triathlete, with the higher power-to-weight ratio, will quickly break away if he or she increases their effort to 100%.

Theoretically, a triathlete with a higher PWR will ride and run faster and climb hills better compared to a person with a lower PWR. Similar advantages apply to running. Some research has shown that a runner can gain 1% in running speed for every 1% reduction in body fat.


It’s Not Just About Weight

weighing-in-by-amyliagrace.jpg Don’t quit reading yet and go out and began a new diet to lose weight. It’s not that simple. The issue is not simply a matter of body weight reduction.

Too often, the miracle diet results in the loss of both fat and force — producing muscle tissue. So, don’t think of it as a "weight loss" issue, but instead as body composition change.

The idea with body composition change is to shed your excess fat without losing any lean mass. Your training program (especially on the nutrition side) needs to be constructed so that your muscles are getting what they need to grow stronger. This, in turn, helps improve your PWR.

Your body is composed mainly of fat, muscle, bone tissue, and water. Your genetics more or less determined the amount and proportion of fat, muscle, and bone tissue, as well as your baseline percentage of body water.

What is most in your control to change is your body fat percentage, and the growth of muscle and strength. Most elite male triathletes have a body fat percentage between 5% and 10%; it’s between 10% and 15% for females. If your percentage of body fat is way out of these ranges, then you have the greatest opportunity for improvement.

Following are some things you can do to improve your power-to-weight ratio.



Step One: Get your body composition checked (every 8 weeks)

There are basically 4 ways to have your body composition checked:

1. Ultrasound Measurement Method, which is a method utilizing an ultrasound procedure that calculates body composition from taking measurements using an ultrasound machine at two sites on the body.

2. Impedance Measurement Method, which uses a very slight electrical current and measures impedance to calculate body composition.

3. Caliper Measurement Method, which is the most common method. You must have the same person check you for consistent measurements. Accuracy (hence consistency) is based on the experience/skill of the tester, and measurements taken in exactly same location. A good tester will have the ability to compensate for various skin thickness and pliability. A good option for most triathletes is to find an "experienced" person that uses calipers.

4. Water Weighing Measurement Method, which is a dunk tank. This method tends to be the standard that all other measurement tools are compared to. Its flaw is that results are dependent on a person exhaling "completely" when they get submerged into a tank full of water. If one does not completely exhale on each test, there will be a variance in results. It’s also comparatively much more expensive.




Step Two: Be Realistic

*

For general health, a male needs 3-5% body fat, and a female 8-12%.
*

The average male adult has 8-15% body fat, and the average female 18-26%.
*

Male triathletes tend to have 4-12% body fat, and female triathletes 8-17%.

It’s going to take time to make changes to your body composition; be patient. Some triathletes seek guidance from a sport dietitian for determining how much you should lose while maintaining energy levels to train well. A professional can provide some insight on how much weight you can realistically lose to assist you in reaching your goals.

Decreasing your body fat while maintaining lean mass, and the energy to carry out triathlon train
ing, will take some planning. Most feel that decreasing your calories by 200-300 per day is a conservative, but smart, approach to fat reduction.



Step Three: Follow a sound nutrition plan

The range what for you need in terms of the key nutrition components is as follows. Multiply the number of grams per pound of your body weight to determine your specific needs.

Cabs: 2.5 – 4.5 grams
Protein: 0.5 – 0.6 grams
Fat: 0.4 – 0.5 grams

Go with the low end of the range if you are training 1-2 hours per day, and the high end of the range if you are training 3-4 hours a day.

For weight reduction, the most tried and tested approach is to adopt an eating style with a calorie level that produces gradual, effective weight loss. Healthy weight loss is defined to be 2 pounds per week.

Remember that the quality of food matters. A serious triathlete will meet daily carbohydrate needs with a variety of nutrient-rich whole grain breads and cereals, pasta, rice, potatoes, vegetables and fruits. Protein should come from low saturated fat meats or plant sources such as soy beans or other legumes. Healthy fats from olive oil, flaxseed, nuts and avocados are a few good options. Avoid high sugar/calorie beverages (fruit juice blends, sodas, sports drinks) at and between meals. Go with low-calorie beverages to meet your hydration needs. Reserve the sports drinks and bars for use during training.

The timing of meals matters too. To maximize your metabolic rate, meals should be no more than 5 hours apart. Going longer than 5 hours between meals causes the human body to go into conservation mode physiologically. Eating 3 meals, with 1or 2 healthy snacks daily, will keep your metabolic engine running on all cylinders. Be sure you evenly spread out your caloric intake throughout the day.



Step Four: Train for more power

Maintaining or increasing functional lean muscle mass is critical for improving your power-to-weight ratio.

Some form of periodized strength training should be a part of your overall year-round triathlon training program.

You can’t change your genetics, but you may be a candidate to significantly influence your body composition to aid your performance as a triathlete.

_________________
TREK Madone 5.9 SL #7
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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Quote:
1) I have always been on the chubbby side, and the last years of cycling have seen me shed a ton of fat and muscle gain. I want to lose fat as I still have the classic tire around the lower belly that I'd like to get rid of.


+1 Me too.

Quote:
2) Fantastic saying that I've really never thought about. I guess it would be easier to raise my performance rather than shedding the last kg's? And by doing so, my weight might drop.

Tough qustion and a balancing act. But my personal experience is that low body weight really does trump power production. Maybe its because I am in Utah, and every race is eventually decided on a hill or even mountain. But leanness seems to be an advantage even in criteriums, etc. Think "greyhound" not "bulldog".
My experence was that., at some point you have trained hard and you are producing about as much power as you can. If you trim away the fat, it is a direct increase in the power/weight ratio.

Quote:
3) I'm already eating less than I used to - maybe I'm just impatient at getting results.ote]
4) I agree. I've read numorous articles, one stating one thing, another a completely different approach. My initial thought was that doing a lot of steady state would lead the body to addapt to that strain. By mixing up shorter/more powerfull intervals with the classic 2x20 maybe that would confuse the body a bit? Any thoughts on that? For instance starting the week by doing 5 minute intervals at 105% of FTP with 1 minute rest, then on another day go back to 2x20 SST? Or maybe having one day with tabata style intervals?
5) I've thought about that as well, but know I can get down to at least 75 kg(as I was in december).

Seems like a good plan.
Other things that work for me: 5-6 hr rides, and substitute a protein shake for a few meals.

Yes, you will feel like crap.
This is the weight-loss process. Carb load for a day before races and make sure to eat during races. Back on the diet immediately afterwards.

Just my experience. I tried the methods approved by the academicians with very mediocre results. But simple weight loss had a nearly magical effect on my results.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:41 pm 
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First - Fitzgerald came out with a book called Racing Weight. The book pretty much breaks down the methodology of getting to what would be your "ideal racing weight". All the topics discussed in this thread are discussed in the book and it also goes over training regiments, diet make-up, and all sorts of other ideas. Changed my perspective on working out and the full-package type of fitness that we're hoping to achieve.

Second - I've noticed that you don't do any core-focused workouts when you spelled out your regiment. I am also one of those guys who have always been on the chubby side. The only time I was able to see prominent loss and definition in the abdomen was when I mixed in daily cardiovascular activity with tons of abdominal reps and push ups. Having a strong core is definitely one way to increase your power to weight ratio in a profound way. I recommend finishing all of your sessions with some core workouts (not just planking) if you want to lose that gut (I know it's not one of your primary goals, but you did mention it)

Lastly - It looks like your focus isn't triathlons or anything, just biking it looks like. The more I read through your posts though, the more I get the sensation that you're looking for that "total-package" type of fitness, not just fit legs. I mix in upper body lifting twice a week with a very enhanced focus on regular and modified push-ups, pull-ups, and sit-ups. This helped me really achieve that physique, but also the fact that I have to put in the swim twice a week helped too. Maybe different types of workouts might get you focused and interested enough to push yourself to that next level.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:30 pm 
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CerveloBert wrote:
First - Fitzgerald came out with a book called Racing Weight. The book pretty much breaks down the methodology of getting to what would be your "ideal racing weight". All the topics discussed in this thread are discussed in the book and it also goes over training regiments, diet make-up, and all sorts of other ideas. Changed my perspective on working out and the full-package type of fitness that we're hoping to achieve.


Thanks, I'll look into it :D

CerveloBert wrote:
Second - I've noticed that you don't do any core-focused workouts when you spelled out your regiment. I am also one of those guys who have always been on the chubby side. The only time I was able to see prominent loss and definition in the abdomen was when I mixed in daily cardiovascular activity with tons of abdominal reps and push ups. Having a strong core is definitely one way to increase your power to weight ratio in a profound way. I recommend finishing all of your sessions with some core workouts (not just planking) if you want to lose that gut (I know it's not one of your primary goals, but you did mention it)

Lastly - It looks like your focus isn't triathlons or anything, just biking it looks like. The more I read through your posts though, the more I get the sensation that you're looking for that "total-package" type of fitness, not just fit legs. I mix in upper body lifting twice a week with a very enhanced focus on regular and modified push-ups, pull-ups, and sit-ups. This helped me really achieve that physique, but also the fact that I have to put in the swim twice a week helped too. Maybe different types of workouts might get you focused and interested enough to push yourself to that next level.


Well, define core-focused workouts and why I should do them :wink: Squats relies quite a deal on the core being strong, and I also do hyperextensions. And, you're right. I'm not a triathlete, just a biker, and I've stopped doing upperbody work and started focusing on my legs. The reason? I was putting on too much dead-weight on my upper body. I do like the way my upper body has turned out, but I've reached the point where I don't want to put on more weight on that part of my body :)

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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:02 pm 
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My second point was merely just an observation. Let me elaborate.

I can tell you that the core strengthening did NOT affect my riding in any profound way. Where I feel it did help, was when I got off the bike to finish up the day with chores or other errands, I found that I was not as fatigued and was able to hold my body upright even through fatigue. This is important because I saw that after an exhausting ride, my non-riding day to day posture has been able to hold up even through long work days after morning rides. The core strength is basically for everything that is NOT riding or sleeping, and you will do yourself proud by losing that last bit of flat tire around your waist.

It sounds like you're doing a good job of keeping up with your workouts and managing weight. I am speaking on behalf of general overall health when I say that you should be doing this things. When talking about relating to the bike - I have to say that these workouts can be counter-productive to riding (especially when talking about added body weight). We all admit that cycling overdevelops certain muscle groups while giving absolutely zero attention to others, so please don't misunderstand my point when I say that we should be working on core and upper body groups as cyclists. I think we should be doing these things as first - healthy human beings, then second - athletes.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:36 am 
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Compared to how I train and how I get down in weight before the season you train too little on the road and lift too much weight - at this time of the year this time of training should be over and limited to max once every week. Hard weighttraining will also prevent you be able to do some serious interval session the following day (or that's how I work on me). Weekend rides, 3-4 hours and make one of you hometrainer sesions a roadride too.

And about the diet. 250 grams milk chokolade? Seriously? Make that on or two pieces of a good dark chokolade and a protein recovery shake or banana instead. Your breakfast is probably better than mine. I don't have time at all to make me such a nice breakfast so I just get 50-75 grams of musli or oatmeal.

About your mixed salad it could be anything. Is it just salat, cucumber and tomatos or is it some salad that saturates you like brocoli and such?

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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:15 am 
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Giant DK wrote:
Compared to how I train and how I get down in weight before the season you train too little on the road and lift too much weight - at this time of the year this time of training should be over and limited to max once every week. Hard weighttraining will also prevent you be able to do some serious interval session the following day (or that's how I work on me). Weekend rides, 3-4 hours and make one of you hometrainer sesions a roadride too.

And about the diet. 250 grams milk chokolade? Seriously? Make that on or two pieces of a good dark chokolade and a protein recovery shake or banana instead. Your breakfast is probably better than mine. I don't have time at all to make me such a nice breakfast so I just get 50-75 grams of musli or oatmeal.

About your mixed salad it could be anything. Is it just salat, cucumber and tomatos or is it some salad that saturates you like brocoli and such?

250 grams of milk chocolate is just to get a mix og 4:1. A protein shake could do the same, but have too much protein, and not that many carbs. I could take a protein shake and then a banana, but my guess is that the result would be about the same. But always good to look into.

Good point on the weightlifting. My idea was to do the weightlifting until mid-March as that's when the last season preps kicks in, but I see your point of dropping that to once a week now, and put in a bike session instead. I must recover pretty well, because I don't have any problems with doing weighttraining and then a hard intervalsession the next day. I actually did that yesterday when I took a 20 minute FTP test the day after weightlifting. Maybe my FTP could have been higher if I had not done the weightlifting, but it's anybody's guess. I didn't feel restrained by it though :)

Point taken on the outside session. One of the reasons I don't do that right now is because it's still quite dark when I get off work, but will definately see if I maybe can substitute a restday for a weekday, and then do consecutive days on the road on the weekend.

My mixed salad usually consists of carrots(lots), green peas, tomatoes, cuecumber and red pepper. I'm picky about my food, and don't really like brocoli, hence the peas and the carrots.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Well carrots are good for the hunger but the other vegatables is nearly just water hence you have to eat more potatoes to be full - in my view. They doesn't harm you at all and sure they are good. But if you wanna loose serious weight you have to eat the vegatables that saturates you.

A good frontlight and you won't be restricted to you hometrainer. I do from 1 to 3 hours in on the road in the winter from 4 pm to 7 pm. No problems. That said, I'm also very glad for my hometrainer so if it is too rainy, or snow, I gladly take the hometrainer. The sessions on hometrainer will be more intense - same intervals though - but will lack that extra hour in endurance pace.

When you say milk chokolate to you then mean chocolate milk? If so I totally understand you but if you really enjoy 250 gram of milk chokolate (2,5 Ritter sport or 1,25 Marabou) I believe you have a huge weight loss potential here!

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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:04 pm 
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Giant DK wrote:
When you say milk chokolate to you then mean chocolate milk? If so I totally understand you but if you really enjoy 250 gram of milk chokolate (2,5 Ritter sport or 1,25 Marabou) I believe you have a huge weight loss potential here!

HAHAHAHAHA :D Yes, apparrently I was a bit too eager when writing and got the words in reverse order. Yes, I do mean chocolate milk :D Lille Lise from Netto :D

I'll look into what vegetables I could spice my salad up with, without having to force it down!

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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:56 pm 
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I don't know if this is terrible advice or not. But when I gave up bread I got super lean, like gross stomach viens lean. I eat loads of carbs too just not baked goods or sweets.


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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:53 pm 
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The concept of not eating something stresses me out too much. Props to people who calorie count and diet - I just feel like my energy levels are right at the limit when I do that - and I'm sluggish throughout the day, with reduced results during training. I still watch what I eat, I just tend to follow how my body wants. Sometimes you need that juicy bacon cheeseburger and a brew, and your body will want it. I don't want to have that hardcore attitude towards that diet, nor do I feel the need to do so. Again - I am a person who has been on the chubby side for the majority of his life, and that might have something to do with my attitude. It's just amazing how I am at a 15% body fat, and the guy next to me looks leaner at the same body fat percentage. That's how strong genetics comes into play.

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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
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 Post subject: Re: Losing the last fat
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:34 pm 
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Your body wants it.....until you start going up a hill.
You feel weak and lightheaded....until other riders start dropping away from you on a hill. :lol:


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