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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:47 am 
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Too true!
China (and vicinity) is already quickly becoming THE market for most Veblen goods and high-marked brands.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:39 am 
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prendrefeu wrote:
Hold your tongue, England isn't exactly sitting stable either. :wink:

Our economy may be bruised but we're far healthier than the US when you look at our respective deficits. UK has a national debt of 79.9% of GDP, while the US has a staggering 102% of GDP according to CIA & Eurostat. Even when you look at the IMF figures it's bleak at 75% & 94%. Funny thing is the US is only one step below that stalwart economy Irelan, while the UK is several places below its arch critic France.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:39 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:32 am 
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Beyond the arcteryx veilance line which is made in Canada can someone give me an example of a company of a similar size to Rapha that manufactures technical clothing in North America? By technical I mean waterproof or windproof garments constructed out of North American milled; oil-based, synthetic fabrics.

Having worked in the rag trade for thirteen years it appears that the global reality of garment manufacturing is passing a few of you by. Any company that wants to bring technical clothing to market on a relatively large scale for a reasonable (I.E. not Veilance) price has little choice but to manufacture in SE Asia. If you think that a factory that's signed up to the Fair Wear Foundation is bad I suggest you take a trip to the factories in Bangladesh or Vietnam if you want an idea of how exploited workers are & how horrific working conditions can be. Further; if a cosmetic stitch line is applied in Italy to a Chinese constructed pair of jeans you will read Made in Italy on the label & in the last few years sweatshops that would shame SE Asia have been found in Manchester: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7824291.stm

I'm not sure about the States but quality, large-scale UK garment manufacturing beyond knitwear ended in the mid-eighties following the heyday of UK outdoor design and innovation. We do not have the expertise to manufacture technical garments here, the quality would be lower and the price higher for items that China have become experts at turning out over the last thirty years.

I can see that Rapha's message could be considered disingenuous by some but this is 2012 & that's marketing, cycling is far from immune.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Location: Natovi Landing
Gem wrote:
Beyond the arcteryx veilance line which is made in Canada can someone give me an example of a company of a similar size to Rapha that manufactures technical clothing in North America? By technical I mean waterproof or windproof garments constructed out of North American milled; oil-based, synthetic fabrics.

Having worked in the rag trade for thirteen years it appears that the global reality of garment manufacturing is passing a few of you by. Any company that wants to bring technical clothing to market on a relatively large scale for a reasonable (I.E. not Veilance) price has little choice but to manufacture in SE Asia. If you think that a factory that's signed up to the Fair Wear Foundation is bad I suggest you take a trip to the factories in Bangladesh or Vietnam if you want an idea of how exploited workers are & how horrific working conditions can be. Further; if a cosmetic stitch line is applied in Italy to a Chinese constructed pair of jeans you will read Made in Italy on the label & in the last few years sweatshops that would shame SE Asia have been found in Manchester: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7824291.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not sure about the States but quality, large-scale UK garment manufacturing beyond knitwear ended in the mid-eighties following the heyday of UK outdoor design and innovation. We do not have the expertise to manufacture technical garments here, the quality would be lower and the price higher for items that China have become experts at turning out over the last thirty years.

I can see that Rapha's message could be considered disingenuous by some but this is 2012 & that's marketing, cycling is far from
immune.


Of the top of my head Endura (UK) would meet your criteria.

There are two things going on in this thread - those that oppose manufacturing in China on the grounds of exporting jobs/economic activity, and those who regard Rapha's marketing as a joke.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:06 pm 
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Location: London, UK
sawyer wrote:
Gem wrote:
Beyond the arcteryx veilance line which is made in Canada can someone give me an example of a company of a similar size to Rapha that manufactures technical clothing in North America? By technical I mean waterproof or windproof garments constructed out of North American milled; oil-based, synthetic fabrics.

Having worked in the rag trade for thirteen years it appears that the global reality of garment manufacturing is passing a few of you by. Any company that wants to bring technical clothing to market on a relatively large scale for a reasonable (I.E. not Veilance) price has little choice but to manufacture in SE Asia. If you think that a factory that's signed up to the Fair Wear Foundation is bad I suggest you take a trip to the factories in Bangladesh or Vietnam if you want an idea of how exploited workers are & how horrific working conditions can be. Further; if a cosmetic stitch line is applied in Italy to a Chinese constructed pair of jeans you will read Made in Italy on the label & in the last few years sweatshops that would shame SE Asia have been found in Manchester: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7824291.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not sure about the States but quality, large-scale UK garment manufacturing beyond knitwear ended in the mid-eighties following the heyday of UK outdoor design and innovation. We do not have the expertise to manufacture technical garments here, the quality would be lower and the price higher for items that China have become experts at turning out over the last thirty years.

I can see that Rapha's message could be considered disingenuous by some but this is 2012 & that's marketing, cycling is far from
immune.


Of the top of my head Endura (UK) would meet your criteria.

There are two things going on in this thread - those that oppose manufacturing in China on the grounds of exporting jobs/economic activity, and those who regard Rapha's marketing as a joke.
Not Amy more. They've outsourced to the far east too.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:00 pm 
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Posts: 1405
Gem wrote:
Beyond the arcteryx veilance line which is made in Canada can someone give me an example of a company of a similar size to Rapha that manufactures technical clothing in North America? By technical I mean waterproof or windproof garments constructed out of North American milled; oil-based, synthetic fabrics.

Having worked in the rag trade for thirteen years it appears that the global reality of garment manufacturing is passing a few of you by. Any company that wants to bring technical clothing to market on a relatively large scale for a reasonable (I.E. not Veilance) price has little choice but to manufacture in SE Asia. If you think that a factory that's signed up to the Fair Wear Foundation is bad I suggest you take a trip to the factories in Bangladesh or Vietnam if you want an idea of how exploited workers are & how horrific working conditions can be. Further; if a cosmetic stitch line is applied in Italy to a Chinese constructed pair of jeans you will read Made in Italy on the label & in the last few years sweatshops that would shame SE Asia have been found in Manchester: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7824291.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm not sure about the States but quality, large-scale UK garment manufacturing beyond knitwear ended in the mid-eighties following the heyday of UK outdoor design and innovation. We do not have the expertise to manufacture technical garments here, the quality would be lower and the price higher for items that China have become experts at turning out over the last thirty years.

I can see that Rapha's message could be considered disingenuous by some but this is 2012 & that's marketing, cycling is far from immune.


http://www.apparelsearch.com/america.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Here is a whole host of US companys that could sew stuff together.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:08 pm 
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Posts: 30
sawyer wrote:

Of the top of my head Endura (UK) would meet your criteria.

There are two things going on in this thread - those that oppose manufacturing in China on the grounds of exporting jobs/economic activity, and those who regard Rapha's marketing as a joke.


As Ultimobici has pointed out Endura manufacture product in SE Asia.

Rapha's marketing is subjective in terms of if you appreciate it or not but it's beyond dispute that it's commercially effective.

For those that oppose Chinese manufacturing tell me what is a viable, commercial alternative for a medium sized business? There's either a yawning gap in the market waiting for someone to exploit or there just isn't an alternative to the Rapha model for technical garments. I'm not sure where Assos mill their fabric but I'd suggest that the wages & conditions in their Bulgarian factories are similar to a factory in China that's signed up to the Fair Wear Foundation agreement.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:15 pm 
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bricky21 wrote:

http://www.apparelsearch.com/america.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Here is a whole host of US companys that could sew stuff together.


That's hardly comparing like with like, they can certainly sew stuff together but they don't mill technical fabrics in the States & I can't say they'd be my first port of call for a cycling jacket. AA have also been the subject of criticism regarding working conditions over the last few years & the dismissal of 1500 illegal immigrants in 2009 led to a financial crisis at the company.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:19 pm 
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ultimobici wrote:
sawyer wrote:
Gem wrote:
Beyond the arcteryx veilance line which is made in Canada can someone give me an example of a company of a similar size to Rapha that manufactures technical clothing in North America? ...


Of the top of my head Endura (UK) would meet your criteria.

There are two things going on in this thread - those that oppose manufacturing in China on the grounds of exporting jobs/economic activity, and those who regard Rapha's marketing as a joke.
Not Amy more. They've outsourced to the far east too.
No. So far, {those opposing manufacturing in China on the grounds of exporting jobs/economic activity, and those who regard Rapha's marketing as a joke} have not for the most part been outsourced to the far east. Europeans and Americans are still performing those functions. Rue the day when we get replaced by far east WW's to take up the bitching.

Yeah, yeah, so Rapha stuff is expensive and their marketing is viewed by many as disingenuous - if you like it buy it, if not, don't. Next.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:26 pm 
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Location: Natovi Landing
Gem wrote:
sawyer wrote:

Of the top of my head Endura (UK) would meet your criteria.

There are two things going on in this thread - those that oppose manufacturing in China on the grounds of exporting jobs/economic activity, and those who regard Rapha's marketing as a joke.


As Ultimobici has pointed out Endura manufacture product in SE Asia.

Rapha's marketing is subjective in terms of if you appreciate it or not but it's beyond dispute that it's commercially effective.

For those that oppose Chinese manufacturing tell me what is a viable, commercial alternative for a medium sized business? There's either a yawning gap in the market waiting for someone to exploit or there just isn't an alternative to the Rapha model for technical garments. I'm not sure where Assos mill their fabric but I'd suggest that the wages & conditions in their Bulgarian factories are similar to a factory in China that's signed up to the Fair Wear Foundation agreement.


Is there any evidence to back up the last statement?

I think you're overstating it in saying there isn't a viable alternative, though don't dispute that pressure to generate margin makes it very hard to resist shifting production to low wage china.

Marketing is obviously not entirely subjective ... it's simply a fact that Rapha's marketing eulogises low volume boutique frame builders and bike builds that are essentially not of asian manufacturer - and indeed stand for something very different, an entirely different manufacturing ethos if you will, while themselves shifting production to low cost, high volume asia. That said, I don't doubt it's effectiveness - particularly for those new to the sport.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:35 pm 
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Gem wrote:
bricky21 wrote:

http://www.apparelsearch.com/america.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Here is a whole host of US companys that could sew stuff together.


That's hardly comparing like with like, they can certainly sew stuff together but they don't mill technical fabrics in the States & I can't say they'd be my first port of call for a cycling jacket. AA have also been the subject of criticism regarding working conditions over the last few years & the dismissal of 1500 illegal immigrants in 2009 led to a financial crisis at the company.


What is so technologically groundbreaking about Rapha's materials or construction that makes it impossible to make outside of China? The stuff looks pretty basic to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:45 pm
Posts: 2487
Location: London, UK
bricky21 wrote:
Gem wrote:
bricky21 wrote:

http://www.apparelsearch.com/america.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Here is a whole host of US companys that could sew stuff together.


That's hardly comparing like with like, they can certainly sew stuff together but they don't mill technical fabrics in the States & I can't say they'd be my first port of call for a cycling jacket. AA have also been the subject of criticism regarding working conditions over the last few years & the dismissal of 1500 illegal immigrants in 2009 led to a financial crisis at the company.


What is so technologically groundbreaking about Rapha's materials or construction that makes it impossible to make outside of China? The stuff looks pretty basic to me.
Not groundbreaking, but then no one has claimed it is, and it is certainly not basic at all in terms of quality of construction.

I would rather buy an item from a manufacturer who has the guts to state where their product is made in detail, than some company that either claims to be an EU manufacturer but actually just finishes the product, or a company that vaguely states they use production facilities in the far east. As a previous poster stated, conditions in a Bangladeshi or Thai factory may be just as bad as a stereotypical Chinese sweatshop and far far worse than those KTC's employees enjoy.

Which is preferable?
1. Company tells it customers that it produces overseas and assures them that it makes sure to use reputable companies who respect workers' rights. They expect you to trust them to be telling the truth, but you have no real way to check.
or
2. They name the company responsible for their overseas production, thus letting you, the consumer, investigate for yourself.

IMO option 1 requires faith in people I have no knowledge of. Option 2 is one I as a cynical MF can attempt to debunk. Much riskier for the company.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:13 am 
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They didnt put the spin on China as the world leader in quality rather than reduced production cost until loads of threads like this started to taint the brand for producing the old school Euro premium price image...


There's taking the high road and there's being forced to spin public opinion once information starts to hit the street.

Strictly speaking, Chinese production isnt the problem. Very good products are made there.


It's more an issue of the Way Rapha have presented themselves to the market and priced themselves relative to other products that actually are made in the heart of Euro Cycling culture like Giordana, Capo and a few others...

And it's their place relative to companies that also produce in the far east but pass along savings rather than selling an image of superiority based in a high price and great photography.

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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:05 am 
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do you invest as much time in researching all your purchases?

get a grip fer chrissakes


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:27 am 
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ultimobici wrote:
sawyer wrote:

Of the top of my head Endura (UK) would meet your criteria.

There are two things going on in this thread - those that oppose manufacturing in China on the grounds of exporting jobs/economic activity, and those who regard Rapha's marketing as a joke.


Not Amy more. They've outsourced to the far east too.


Sad but totally understandable. Europe and the US is full of bottom feeders with zero interest in the long term.

It was interesting to see many Swiss quite happy to pay very high prices for local product - safe in the knowledge that the money was going into the country. The model seems to work. More locally produced goods. Higher GDP. Lower taxes. Less Unemployed and far lower debt payments.

It's just people have to be prepared to pay more and be less selfish in the short term. Sadly most are not. How many of you would pay Assos prices for everything if it were made in your Country?

Anyway rant over! Rapha gear is actually rather good - particularly in British Winters. I just wish they would use the money to build a factory in the UK rather than a moody portfolio in the ether sphere.


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 Post subject: Re: Rapha Clothing
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:27 am 


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