HOT: Active* forum members generally gain 5% discount at starbike.com store!
Weight Weenies
* FAQ    * Search    * Trending Topics
* Login   * Register
HOME Listings Articles FAQ Contact About




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:43 pm
Posts: 2922
Location: Canada
This as gone over the edge, cmon Fergie, cmon Rick. Dont fall in the insult stuff.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2348
Rick wrote:
...(But if you do ever come across any data that is actually relevant to asymmetries in power production I would still like to see them. Just post the links, and I will go read them without comment.)...


Do you seriously not understand how any of the above studies or those presented earlier relate directly to the discussion at hand? On what grounds do you think it is not relevant? You seem willing to dismiss all of this as not being relevant when it's the complete opposite. How can you not see that? For someone who states that "... I don't have an assertion. *I* am NOT claiming that asymmetry will do anything when corrected. *I* am not the one claiming to know anything about this...." you seem to dismiss the information at hand. Hell, one of the studies I linked could be used to argue the benefits of bringing asymmetry to as narrow a margin as possible, but you dismissed them all. Why is that?

It's not about me proving you wrong Rick, it's about knowledge.

Given you're still responding I'll assume you still have interest in the subject.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:00 am 


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:25 pm
Posts: 739
Location: Winterpeg
Oh man! The last few pages have been painful to read.

I can admit that i don't understand how i could get from measuring and verifying the imbalance to improved balance and improved performance. I would love to try these pedals, but the price is quite a barrier especially when durability and reliability are bit of a question mark. I know few more, and proven, ways to improve my cycling with this sort of money.

_________________
http://demarere.blogspot.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:28 pm
Posts: 1404
koolstof wrote:
With that in mind, I wondered what others peoples thoughts are on the subject of power monitoring systems generally, is there an interest in moving to pedal based systems, or are you happy with the current cranks and hub based systems out there?


Great question :P ^^^This was the question posted by the OP

I think these pedals will provide lots of people with information that they aren't qualified to deal with.

When considering all the possibilities that I know of which could lead to pedaling asymmetries and then considering the possibilities that I don't know of leads me to believe these things are gonna be a source of great misinterpretation.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1530
Quote:
Given you're still responding I'll assume you still have interest in the subject.


Still reading; still interested; but i will no longer make any of my own comments or respond to comments.

Another study of the effect of correcting asymmetry (due to foot alignment):

What Does the Research Say?
Many of the claims related to the benefits of both Cleat Wedges and ITS Wedges are anecdotal. Although little published research
exists on their application and/or performance benefits; they remain widely used and appear to provide instant benefits at
minimal expense. In a robust repeatedmeasures design study, Dinsdale (author) and Williams (2010) examined the effect of ITS
Wedges on cycling performance in riders with varying levels of forefoot varus / forefoot supinatus. Unlike previous studies, this
study reported forefoot varus measurements for each rider, and the corresponding number of ITS Wedges used in testing. Unique to
this study, the results demonstrated a strong correlation between power output and cyclists with varying amounts of forefoot varus /
forefoot supinatus. Consequently, those with the highest levels of forefoot varus / forefoot supinatus demonstrated increased anaerobic
mean power outputs of approximately 10%.

Full paper here:
http://www.njdsportsinjuries.co.uk/inde ... 532282.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dr. Ed Burke (previously mentioned) is the author of High-tech Cycling. I can't cut & paste from google books, but you can see his anaylsis of pedaling dynamics and comments on asymmetry here : http://books.google.com/books?id=msdT4i ... er&f=false


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 12:54 am
Posts: 79
Rick wrote:
Another study of the effect of correcting asymmetry (due to foot alignment):

What Does the Research Say?


Neither article is an actual research paper.

Those who clearly don't understand the actual research shouldn't post about what what the research says.

_________________
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2348
Rick wrote:
Full paper here:
http://www.njdsportsinjuries.co.uk/inde ... 532282.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dr. Ed Burke (previously mentioned) is the author of High-tech Cycling. I can't cut & paste from google books, but you can see his anaylsis of pedaling dynamics and comments on asymmetry here : http://books.google.com/books?id=msdT4i ... er&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Well the first is a nicely constructed ad. It also does not address whether there was a power imbalance between the legs and how much this was corrected (not that it matters) . However, as I have mentioned before, a good fitter should pick up on gross biomechanics imbalances and this could be a good argument for the use of wedges. A pedal based power systems is not relevant in the slightest.

I stopped reading the extract of the book when they mentioned Powercranks. Once again this is about pedal force application rather than asymmetry per se. And power cranks been done to death and the consensus and research all say its hokum. Same with Rotor rings. There is no free lunch.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1530
CoachFergie wrote:
Rick wrote:
Another study of the effect of correcting asymmetry (due to foot alignment):

What Does the Research Say?


Neither article is an actual research paper.

Those who clearly don't understand the actual research shouldn't post about what what the research says.

Just to clarify: "What Does the Research say" is actually part of the quote from the paper. It is not my comment.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 4:30 pm
Posts: 1530
Kamen, Foundations of Exercise Science, 2001, page 187:
"In this study, the degree of asymmetry was affected by pedaling rate and power output. On discovering that force production was markedly asymmetric one elite cyclist in this study modified his technique and training methods and eventually became a world champion."
Link: http://books.google.com/books?id=CRVAr- ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Dinsdale:
"Conclusion
In order to treat something, we must first be able to recognise and diagnose it. This article
clearly highlights the need for appropriate screening prior to Bikefit. As demonstrated, efficient,
injury free cycling is highly reliant on pedalling symmetry."

Link: http://www.njdsportsinjuries.co.uk/Befo ... rt%201.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



International Journal of Sports Science and Engineering
Vol. 02 (2008) No. 01, pp. 36-46
Comparison of Biomechanical Criteria in Cycling Maximal Effort Test
William Bertucci 1, Redha Taiar, Yuli Toshev, and Thierry Letellier
1 Laboratoire d’Analyse des Contraintes Mécaniques (LACM, EA 3304), UFR STAPS, Université de Reims-Champagne- Ardenne, Bat. 6 Moulin de la Housse 51687 Reims cedex 2, France
2 Institute of Mechanics and Biomechanics, Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Bulgaria
(Received January 14 2008, accepted February 20 2006)

The RMPD differences between RG and EG could be explained either by the possibility that RG cannot generate high PO values over an extended period during a sprint test, or that the EG have developed (with intensive training) a specific pedalling technique. A high RMPD90 value indicates that the athlete is characterized by a continuous region of maximal forces, the accelerations being well represented at the beginning and end of the pedal downstroke. In other words, a cyclist who has a high RMPD applies a significant force on the pedal for a longer time and reaches the maximal CT level faster. These preliminary results were obtained from the SRM device and suffice to measure the downstroke propulsive torque of one leg and the upstroke propulsive torque of the other leg. We encourage further studies to confirm the difference between RG and EG using two instrumented pedals capable of measuring the tangential and radial pedal forces such as Sanderson 16 performed at submaximal intensity.


Last edited by Rick on Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2348
Once again I do not argue that gross imbalances need to be corrected.

But that's an awesome anecdote the author threw in there. Didn't bother to go into 1) to what extent was the imbalance, 2) how it was (largely) corrected 3) and the resualtant power balance. Kinda sounds like an elite cyclist became a WC as soon as this supposed imbalance was corrected. Wouldn't have been years of training now, would it?

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2348
http://www.njdsportsinjuries.co.uk/Befo ... rt%201.pdf

Yes, I think the system is called Retul. I concur, a good fitting is essential.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2348
Quote:
Vol. 02 (2008) No. 01, pp. 36-46
Comparison of Biomechanical Criteria in Cycling Maximal Effort Test
William Bertucci 1, Redha Taiar, Yuli Toshev, and Thierry Letellier


Yes, I am sure sports science researchers could make use of something that would measure pedal force dynamics. Though the labs I've seen already have this ability and have done so for quite some time.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:43 pm
Posts: 12
So, ummm, I'm not really interested in Left/Right balance issue.

I'm not really interested in the price or lack of ANT+

I am interested in how the product was released, and was it a successful release.

Has anyone here actually used these pedals yet?

Has anyone purchased them? What have your experiences been? Are they reliable?

How much did they cost, and where did you get them?

Did you need support? Where did you get support?

Cheers

Frank


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 12:54 am
Posts: 79
One of my riders brought a pair. Constantly read low, on 2sec recording the memory was full after less than 3 hour. Brought a Quark and paired with a Garmin and is happy as.

_________________
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach


Last edited by CoachFergie on Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 12:54 am
Posts: 79
Double post sorry

_________________
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach


Top
 Profile  
 
Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:59 am 


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 82 posts ] 
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

   Similar Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. Based in Vorselaar for next three months

[ Go to page: 1, 2 ]

in Cycle Chat

Tinea Pedis

27

1333

Tue May 13, 2014 11:52 pm

CulBaire View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. If you train with power, do you race with power too?

[ Go to page: 1, 2 ]

in Training

nickd01

18

2140

Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:00 am

fireball05 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Power meter issues + MTB power meter on a roadbike

in Road

AlexJ

3

645

Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:09 pm

Geoff View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Help me to make a pedal choice

[ Go to page: 1, 2, 3, 4 ]

in Road

marcio riva

54

4466

Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:25 pm

n808 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. pedal spacers with time pedals

[ Go to page: 1, 2 ]

in Road

digitalnorbs

16

944

Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:36 am

digitalnorbs View the latest post


It is currently Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:08 am

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Advertising   –  FAQ   –  Contact   –  Convert   –  About

© Weight Weenies 2000-2013
hosted by starbike.com


How to get rid of these ads? Just register!


Powered by phpBB