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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:29 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:51 am
Posts: 1825
1centaur wrote:
I own SRAM bank debt in some of my portfolios (I'm a professional money manager) and in my view they are not overlevered and they are exceptionally well managed.

When looking at the industry, I think it's important to recognize who delivers what those top 10 frame sellers need and who doesn't. SRAM is valuable to the industry; it's not all about what consumers think. SRAM is very clear-eyed about its place and its competition, IMO, and will do fine regardless of the perception of electronic gaps at the top of the road line.

I'm intrigued. At this point, SRAM is not publicly listed so was wondering how do they list their debt in public domain in this case ?? And how does one assess the risks of such kind of debts ??

I've always found the financial 'structured products' a little befuddling and have stuck to commodities and stocks. Would certainly like to learn more though. :beerchug:

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:04 am 

Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:00 am
Posts: 396
Don't know how public the debt level is, though it may be on Bloomberg (TKL to look up the ticker symbol for the bank debt) so most investment professionals can see it. As to the risk of that debt, that's what high yield and bank loan managers and analysts do for a living. I've been in that business for well over 20 years; been invested in SRAM debt for the last few and been very happy at their results. Some thought out there they may IPO in the next year or two.

Bonds and loans are not "structured products" they are simple debts owed by single companies. Structured products take a bunch of such simple debts (home mortgages are another example) and re-slice up the combined total of interest income into senior and junior pieces for investors willing to take different risks to get different returns.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:21 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:04 pm
Posts: 2
madcow wrote:
As mentioned in another thread, adding some more numbers here.

Total sales for FY 2010.
Shimano, $2,756,669,339
Sram, $524,300,000
Campag, $148,000,000 (reliable estimate)

Net income for FY2010
Shimano, $246,510,473
Sram, $50,000,000
Campag $9,000,000 (reliable estimate)

Interesting story on Campag and their future. I thought this was a great read and recommend it http://justenjoyit.posterous.com/campag ... full-story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:45 pm 
Shop Owner

Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 4:22 pm
Posts: 3646
Location: Tucson, Az.
Let's talk about some more numbers. Recently the awesome folks at Gluskin Townley group sent me their 2010 American Bicyclist Study, for which I have to say thank you. Here's a few highlights and summaries.

The first one is massively depressing for me. When I was a kid, a bike was my world. It gave me the freedom to go out to learn and explore. This does not bode well for the future of cycling in the U.S.

" Bicycling is not for kids any more. The number of children who ride bicycles
declined more than 20 percent between 2000 and 2010, while the number of
adults who ride increased slightly."

"The number of Americans who ride a bicycle at least six times a year declined from 43.1
million in 2000 to 39.8 million in 2010. This represented an 8 percent decline even as the
overall number of Americans adults increased 10 percent"

"American adults who ride a bicycle at least 110 days
a year increased 12 percent during the decade, even as the total number of adult riders
was essentially flat"

"The number of women who ride
frequently increased by more than 100,000 between 2000 and 2010, even as the total
number of women riders decreased by almost 1.3 million."

Fair Wheel Bikes

Fair Wheel Blog


PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:43 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:31 pm
Posts: 459
I really can't stand shimano, it really is like comparing a casio to a Rolex (Campag). I've never thought that anything i've had by shimano had any soul, and my bikes were saved by having a little bit of soul with Mavic. It's massed produced stamped metal crud, or looks like it is.; if art poetry and music mean fudge all to you, then drown in the stuff. Take a vacation in an industrial suburb, eat burgers and fries for dinner, record daytime tv on your digibox, look at a muddy puddle instead of the rainbow, and ride shimano.

Nice pedals mind, the A600 spd at least.

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:44 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:33 pm
Posts: 412
Location: bay area, california
Shimano hubs aren't bad either. I'm on my third re-built wheelset with my 6600 hubs. 50,000+ miles later they're still butter smooth.

bike / strava / instagram

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:59 pm 

Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:32 pm
Posts: 363
The first one is massively depressing for me. When I was a kid, a bike was my world. It gave me the freedom to go out to learn and explore.

+1 Million

PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:17 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:20 am
Posts: 496
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
With regards to a few posts earlier in the thread about the numbers of bikes sold within a specific price range, the top end market is really small. In the last shop I worked in(in Brisbane, was there for 6 months before having to leave due to visa rules) was a fairly standard LBS, 2 full time staff so pretty small. Over that period we probably averaged 1 $3000-4000 road bike a week, that's carbon with 105 or carbon with ultegra with Aussie prices. And only sold one bike with Dura Ace, and one with Super Record. Then I think we were averaging 2 road bikes with aluminium frames and 105 groupsets or less. Then a few cheapo hybrids and entry-mid range MTB's to round it off.

Overall the mid range was what kept that shop(and most that I have worked in) in business. Obviously every shop will be different, there will be the(to my mind lucky) few who can sell only the top end but they are few and far between as the market is so small!

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:09 am 
Shop Owner

Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Posts: 1980
Location: NoVA/DC
ticou wrote:
I really can't stand shimano, it really is like comparing a casio to a Rolex (Campag).

id compare high end shimano to seiko.
i like seiko.

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:37 am 

Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:51 am
Posts: 1825
I was just about to say that !

Its a much closer comparison, both in terms of size and technology. Their Spring-Drive and Grand Seiko watches just whips the precision of all the traditional Swiss Chronometers !

But Campag is not in the league of Rolex in terms of 'equivalent size' though. Albeit, they have equally rabid fans. :noidea:

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:49 am 

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:31 pm
Posts: 459
Granted Seiko have a bit of style in their top ends, so where on G's green planet did you find an analogy with shim shim shiroo, makers of the worlds finest toilet brushes?

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:13 am 

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:35 pm
Posts: 68
Location: NorCal
While I agree that the current state of cycling in America is nowhere near what it used to be, there is hope.

http://www.nationalmtb.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Coming to a state near you, Madcow. 8)

PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:31 pm 
Shop Owner / Manufacturer

Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:24 am
Posts: 72
did not want to start a new topic...

If anyone has any data about bicycle helmets, I would really appreciate it. I'm especially interested in aero (tri and TT) helmet sales numbers (how many aero helmets sold annually in world or in specific continents/countries). Need it for one business calculation. Google gave some older data (US specific), but if anyone has hints to where can I find more then...

Right now I have the number of 1,66 M helmets sold in US in 2009/10 season. But I could use more global or more specific numbers...


EDIT: tri/TT bike sales nr would do as well, as I assume anyone buying a TT bike will have/get the helmet as well.


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