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 Post subject: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:58 am
Posts: 155
Location: Finland
I came to the forum to see any comments of the new TrainerRoad indoor training software, but was surprised to find none. I have used the software only for a short time, but my experiences are very good.

See for yourselves:http://www.trainerroad.com.


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:52 am
Posts: 20
Location: Sheffield, United Kingdom
Looks good, but I see they are about to start charging a monthly subscription for it. Think I'll stick with Golden Cheetah.


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:02 pm 


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:51 pm
Posts: 15
It's a pretty good program and a great idea. I've been using it without any issues. I also use their plans.

If you like TheSufferFest videos they have the graphs for that as well.


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 10
Nate from http://www.TrainerRoad.com here. I'm happy to answer any questions.


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:29 am 
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Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 2342
Interesting product, but to pay for it?? Utter waste of time.

Unless there are some hidden features not advertised I see little point.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:37 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 6:58 am
Posts: 155
Location: Finland
The most valuable feature for me is the virtual power. As I don't have a power meter I am still able to train with power during the winter time.


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:54 am 
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Actual power meters suffer from variance. Virtual power doubly so. The more variance in reading and lack of consitency makes it a gimmick, at best. Waste of time in my opinion.

For long efforts you'd be better off using time, HR and RPE, shorter efforts - time and RPE.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:48 pm 
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Tapeworm wrote:
Actual power meters suffer from variance. Virtual power doubly so. The more variance in reading and lack of consitency makes it a gimmick, at best. Waste of time in my opinion.

For long efforts you'd be better off using time, HR and RPE, shorter efforts - time and RPE.


It's going to vary on a few factors; Tire tensions, air pressure and tire wear. On top of that some trainers have a drift due to heat accumulation.

Some though, after you warm them up, are very solid. It's just physics, so I'm sorta surprised by Tapeworm's reaction. Tapeworm, do you feel that the Lemond Revolution power pilot is also a gimmick? They're working on the same assumptions that we are.

On the other hand, I'm not surprised by his reaction. We haven't been doing a good job of publishing data to show how accurate VirtualPower is. We have a few parts on order so that we can hook a motor up to a bike on a Trainer and generate repeatable tests. I think when we show that people can make informed decisions on which Trainer they want to use and what they're getting out of it.

I think that if you don't have/can't afford a power meter and have a decent trainer, then VirtualPower is a superior choice when compared to HR or RPE based Training. A power meter will be more accurate, but you can use TrainerRoad for 20 years before spending the same amount of money on a power meter. So it's just a decision for people to make about how they want to spend their money.

Our existing customers think that we greatly enhance indoor trainer workouts (whether they use a power meter, VirtualPower or a HR monitor). A lot of people say they actually USE their trainer now and ENJOY it. You don't hear people saying they enjoy the trainer very often.

There are also some big names using it and paying for it, including Simon Whitfield. But, if you feel like you already have great indoor workouts, don't get bored during them and are motivated to do them then we aren't the product for you and you would be wasting your money on us.


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:51 pm
Posts: 15
I'm actually anxious for the next workout everytime, following one of your plans. Then again, I'm green, so any guidance is welcome...and who doesn't like more stats (then going by RPE).

I'm interested to see if you'll be able to create a method to calibrate the trainers to correspond to their virtual power formula (I have a KK Road Machine).


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:24 pm 
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wheelzqc wrote:
I'm actually anxious for the next workout everytime, following one of your plans. Then again, I'm green, so any guidance is welcome...and who doesn't like more stats (then going by RPE).

I'm interested to see if you'll be able to create a method to calibrate the trainers to correspond to their virtual power formula (I have a KK Road Machine).


Yah, we're looking at roll down tests to do calibration. This could help solve drift on units that heat up (similar to what computrainer does). And it could let you tighten down your rear wheel differently and not have to worry about it.

ANT+ doesn't have a super high resolution though so that adds some challenges too.

btw, that's a great quote! Can I quote you on the website?


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:35 pm 
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Yeah, for sure you can use the quote !


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:51 pm 
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NatePearson wrote:
Some though, after you warm them up, are very solid. It's just physics, so I'm sorta surprised by Tapeworm's reaction. Tapeworm, do you feel that the Lemond Revolution power pilot is also a gimmick? They're working on the same assumptions that we are.


Yes. Estimated power is an estimate. Same reason the iBike is a gimmick.

Quote:
On the other hand, I'm not surprised by his reaction. We haven't been doing a good job of publishing data to show how accurate VirtualPower is.


Data is always good. The more the better.

Quote:
I think that if you don't have/can't afford a power meter and have a decent trainer, then VirtualPower is a superior choice when compared to HR or RPE based Training. A power meter will be more accurate, but you can use TrainerRoad for 20 years before spending the same amount of money on a power meter.


Given how cheap you can get a second hand power meter these days I'd be curious to see the price differential.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 10
Yah, I agree the I bike is a gimmick. There are too many variables outdoors to make that accurate.

As you said before, even power meters fluctuate and have variance, sometimes on the same ride due to heat.

I think the key thing is that we give people motivation and greater accuracy than RPE and HR while on the Trainer. I really do believe that with the right trainer you can be relatively consistent numbers between sessions.

For example, if you have the setup the same holding 25mph on a kurt kinetic road machine after it warms up will produce the same watts. You're just moving a set of blades through liquid. Drive train loss and rolling resistance are going to affect those numbers, but if you keep those consistent you should have a "VIRTUAL" power meter. Hence the name virtual...it's not really a power meter and it won't be as accurate as a power meter. Depending on your rear wheel tension those numbers could be off 20-30 watts. If you stay consistent though you'll ALWAYS get them to be the same number of watts off. That's the value we're offering.

The resistance units on trainers are usually nice closed systems, so it's easier to write a formula around them. With the iBike there's just too many variables outdoors.


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:05 pm 
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I thought I'd offer up some data to make it more clear about how accurate VirtualPower is. (not saying that it's super accurate, just accurate enough to train with)

This ride was done on a Kurt Kinetic Rock n Roll road machine and a PowerTap. I rode with the rear tire at 1 1/2 turns and PSI at 120 with a continental trainer tire.

Here's the first graph. You can see here that VirtualPower is about 31 watts higher than my power tap.
Image


If you apply a y-intercept offset of -31 you can see the two graphs are pretty close. There's a little bit of drift over the course of the workout but not enough to get worked up about. I'm also assuming that my PowerTap didn't drift. It has a 1.5% accuracy claim.
Image

Note, all of this data has an 8 second rolling average applied to it to smooth it.

That should give you a better idea about how it compares to a power meter. I do think it kicks the shit of out a heart rate monitor :).


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am
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So how do you apply an offset if you have no power meter?

Very neat to estimate power but not worth paying for.

I would say, though, I would rank this above CycleOps new HR "virtual power" meter.

_________________
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG


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 Post subject: Re: TrainerRoad
Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:33 pm 


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