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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Does this mean the Di2 version of DA 9000 won't be available until fall 2013? Bummer.


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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:40 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:00 pm 
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The Di2 can conceivably come out before or just a simultaneous release. All shimano needs to do is program in a new shift spacing and make minor changes so the derailleur can handle the expanded range.

I know everyone is complaining about the more dish, but I think essentially shimano is going to the campy spacing.

I think once we move past 11 speed, we will see a change in OLD


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:14 pm 
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2 weeks ago someone had posted on the pro-thread that team sky would be on 11 spd electric next year.
there have also been posts that sram will be moving to 11spd for next version of red.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Index shifting is progress 11 speeds is not progress but a step back in reliability, cost, and even maintenance since as the spacing's get smaller the tolerance of crud and being noisy goes down. Ask yourself this question, is 15 speeds progress??? is 20????. Also, nobody is mentioning that making the rear wider only increases cross chaining issues and chain wear.

The net is full of anecdotal data about 10 speed chains last as long as 9 speed, yada yada yada. 2 of my bikes are single speed mountain bikes and I can tell you that 8 speed chains seem to last about 10% longer than 9 speed chains which is not much of a price to pay but 9 speed chains seem to last about 50% longer than 10 speed chains and that is significant. You are being sold a "bill of goods" people!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Who cares - new toys! :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:46 pm 
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yourdaguy wrote:
Index shifting is progress 11 speeds is not progress but a step back in reliability, cost, and even maintenance since as the spacing's get smaller the tolerance of crud and being noisy goes down. Ask yourself this question, is 15 speeds progress??? is 20????. Also, nobody is mentioning that making the rear wider only increases cross chaining issues and chain wear.

The net is full of anecdotal data about 10 speed chains last as long as 9 speed, yada yada yada. 2 of my bikes are single speed mountain bikes and I can tell you that 8 speed chains seem to last about 10% longer than 9 speed chains which is not much of a price to pay but 9 speed chains seem to last about 50% longer than 10 speed chains and that is significant. You are being sold a "bill of goods" people!


We're currently running Campagnolo 11S drivetrains on MTBs, including some AM rigs in the atlantic coast of Europe (you want mud? :) ) and we're gladly surprised about general reliability. I can't see where the problem is with 11 cogs.

Electronic shifting will only add precision. We are also working in our own electronic shifting system and rear derailleur has a resolution of 330 steps between two adjancent cogs. I don't think Shimano and Campagnolo systems are very different at this.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:54 pm 
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prendrefeu wrote:
If indeed Shimano is going 11-spd, they're essentially trying to kill off Campagnolo.
Greater availability on OEM Market? Covered/Done.
MTB market? Covered/Done.
CX Market? Covered/Done.
Electronic? Covered/Done.
Disc brakes? Covered/Done.
11-speed? Soon.

Aside from "made in the EU" and association of the brand with history/tradition, what is the advantage of Campagnolo anymore?

Didn't you say something similar when Shimano released 10-speed :lol:

If Shimano cassette spacing is as rumoured to be the the same as Campag, it's SRAM who need to be concerned. They're going to be the odd man out regarding neutral service and I could see guys returning to Campag for that reason.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:31 pm 
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5 8 5 wrote:
Didn't you say something similar when Shimano released 10-speed :lol:


Nope. :mrgreen:

5 8 5 wrote:
If Shimano cassette spacing is as rumoured to be the the same as Campag, it's SRAM who need to be concerned. They're going to be the odd man out regarding neutral service and I could see guys returning to Campag for that reason.


Yes, that's a very good point regarding the neutral service. By scheduling it looks like Shimano is headed for 11-spd in mid-2012. At this point (Dec, 2011) we don't know what SRAM is planning on doing. The thread on that subject did reveal some interesting possibilities, including hydraulic + 11, but we don't know anything as SRAM is being as tight-lipped about their future products as Apple is in the electronics industry.

Whether teams/guys head back to Campagnolo in lieu of SRAM not being 11-speed, I don't think so. I would see instead a lot of teams headed back to Shimano until SRAM picks up the pace, leaving Campagnolo in the position they are currently in: only a few teams will run their drivetrains. ProTour teams are more subject to their sponsor's set up than a lot of people realize. If the frame manufacturer carries Shimano or SRAM as OEM, that's what the team will run. Only if the frame sponsor does not have a clearly defined OEM drivetrain or they simply supply bikes without drivetrains, Campagnolo will be an option.

I brought up the issue of OEM shares in the Campagnolo EPS thread, and some folks actually engaged in a healthy discussion on that which I appreciate, some just wanted to fap to the latest bling and chose to deride instead of thinking.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:45 pm 
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Surely teams will move away from SRAM simply because the heavily leveraged company is going to be forced to cut it's marketing budget soon? It's unlikely they moved to them because of any technical advantage after all.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:46 pm 
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So Dura Ace 9000 is such a big advance that they skipped over 8000?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:02 pm 
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I suppose that perhaps leaves a slot open for 11S Ultegra 8000 in a very near future?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:16 pm 
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airwise wrote:
Surely teams will move away from SRAM simply because the heavily leveraged company is going to be forced to cut it's marketing budget soon? It's unlikely they moved to them because of any technical advantage after all.

The only thing that determines what groupset a team runs is how much kit and / or money the groupset manufacturers are prepared to throw at a team!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:22 pm 
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Rich-Ti wrote:
airwise wrote:
Surely teams will move away from SRAM simply because the heavily leveraged company is going to be forced to cut it's marketing budget soon? It's unlikely they moved to them because of any technical advantage after all.

The only thing that determines what groupset a team runs is how much kit and / or money the groupset manufacturers are prepared to throw at a team!


True for the most part.....There are exceptions though, like in Garmins case where they ditched a SRAM sponsership in favour of purchasing shimano equipment out of their own budget for 2012. This was reported on Velonews a few weeks back.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:25 pm 
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We'll see if Garmin is running the new stuff in the Classics series this year or even nearer to the TDF. The whole 11sp thing I feel is long overdue for Shimano. You've beaten Campy when it comes to electronic shifting, now you need to beat it at its own game with 11sp shifting! Sram has some catching up to do next year!

*Article has been posted on bikerumor as well. Cats out of the bag!


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Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:25 pm 
  • 14.90 € (including 19% VAT)
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:28 pm 
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andyindo wrote:

True for the most part.....There are exceptions though, like in Garmins case where they ditched a SRAM sponsership in favour of purchasing shimano equipment out of their own budget for 2012. This was reported on Velonews a few weeks back.


If you go back into the thread that discussed that you'll also find that the VeloNews article is questionably written. All we know is that Garmin is using Shimano, the "why" is conjecture without any proof. The "why" should not be ignored however, whatever it actually may be.

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